Vynertje's Support AMA and advice thread

[quote=Jpikachu1999]Thoughts on [[Eye of the Equinox]], [[Eye of the Oasis]], and [[Eye of the Watchers]]? Good, bad, situational? When to get, if at all?[/quote]

[quote=utopus]i've been told that [[eye of the equinox]] is the only one of the eyes that are OK to get. Even then, i think that [[face of the mountain]] is still preferable[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Jpikachu1999]Thoughts on [[Eye of the Equinox]], [[Eye of the Oasis]], and [[Eye of the Watchers]]? Good, bad, situational? When to get, if at all?[/quote] Pretty decent. You simply have to make a tradeoff between: 1. An extra active or 2. A more gold and slot efficient upgrade: 1k less for your final gold item + sightstone Do note that 1k cheaper (edit: it's 800g but you also get the extra ward stack on ruby sightstone) is actually quite good. It means you can start building into items like Aegis, mikaels etc. much sooner. It's a situational thing: you basically have to ask yourself whether you need the active at all or if you can skip it in favour of the better build path. To indicate how I rate them: right now I think it's a 50/50 for the green item path, 60/40 in favour of the eye for yellow and 40/60 in favour of frost queen's claim. [quote=utopus]i've been told that [[eye of the equinox]] is the only one of the eyes that are OK to get. Even then, i think that [[face of the mountain]] is still preferable[/quote] That changed in 6.2/6.1 when the other items received 10% CDR.[/quote]

[quote=MungoGeri][quote=Vynertje]Finally, my main issues with the comment are two things. One is that you originally stated it like a fact instead of your personal advice, I already mentioned that. My second problem is that you imply that tanky supports are more forgiving and easier to play, which is 100% bullshit. I completely agree that if you're not confident on the role in question you should pick something relatively easy, but Janna is much easier (and much more forgiving) than Blitzcrank, Thresh or Leona. Thresh really requires you to master him (I think his winrate for people playing <25 games with him is about 40%) and though Leona and Blitzcrank are relatively simple in their core gameplay, they can backfire horribly and arguably in some aspects more than Janna. ...I think Janna on average is one of the champions with the least amount of deaths. All of her spells actually make her incredibly forgiving for positioning mistakes (the most common in low-Elo in my experience)[/quote] Vynertje, I partly agree and partially disagree with your comments comparing [[janna]] to tanks for players new to the support role. First, I agree that [[thresh]] has a high skill cap, and I want to set aside [[blitzcrank]] as he's less of a tank and more of something unique in his own right. However, I do want to tell of my own experience as a silver player first playing [[janna]] and the experience of my brother who is a low bronze player who tried [[janna]] at my recommendation but gave up on her. You're right, of course, that [[janna]] tends to have a small number of deaths, so that's a point in her favor for a new player. However, I have to say that it took me 30+ games before I really "got" [[janna]]. Yes, even a new player is unlikely to die a lot while playing [[janna]], but at the same time it's really easy for a new player to be and feel practically useless playing her. My early games involved acting as a shield bot (often randomly) and sending out the occational Q tornado. While I didn't die much, I really was quite useless. [[janna]]'s ultimate seemed cool, and I thought "Wow! I can flash in and scatter the entire enemy team!" But four out of five times, this messed up my allies more than the enemy team and often ended with me dying nearly instantly after the ult cast. My brother had a similar experience of feeling useless and not getting why [[janna]] was considered so strong. It was only after quite a number of games and watching some videos before I finally "got" [[janna]]. Once I started treating her as an extension of my adc - being a crowd control bot constantly keeping enemies off my adc (preferably [[vayne]]) - then I started having real success with her. However, as a player just picking [[janna]] up for the first time, she was not as easy to "get" as you seem to think. Contrast this with, say, [[leona]]. Her kit is a really straight-forward faceroll kit. If you use the kit at the wrong time, you die and you get that immediate feedback that tells you, "OK, I shouldn't charge someone that far away from my adc" or "I can't survive that long in the middle of the entire enemy team." But, if you use it at the right time, you also get that immediate feedback that tells you, "Yeah, perfect! I locked down that enemy!" or "Perfect! I protected my adc flawlessly there!" Her kit is very easy to understand, and there's a steady learning progression that occurs as you learn when to charge in and when not to. I believe similar statements could be said for other tanks like [[braum]] and [[tahm kench]]. I agree with your general sentiment that a player should play the kind of champion that fits their own playstyle. However, I think you overestimate how easy it is for a new player to pick up [[janna]] and play her well.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]The same way that going in with [[Leona]] at the wrong time and dying tells you that you did something wrong, so should you immediately dying when you [[Flash]] and attempt to scatter the enemy team with [[Monsoon]], just saying.[/quote]

[quote=utopus][quote=MungoGeri] I agree with your general sentiment that a player should play the kind of champion that fits their own playstyle. However, I think you overestimate how easy it is for a new player to pick up [[janna]] and play her well. [/quote] How to play [[janna]]: Shield your carry when you see projectiles coming towards him, shield your carry when your carry is in a position to trade, stay parallel or only slightly behind to your carry in lane,[[howling gale]] any form of gap closer ([[relentless pursuit]], [[zenith blade]], [[resonating strike]]), if your carry's getting focused then tank skillshots for your carry in all-ins, and reset fights with [[monsoon]].[/quote]

[quote=Thalia Kael]why the fuck are soraka and tahm kench still in this game[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=MungoGeri][quote=Vynertje]Finally, my main issues with the comment are two things. One is that you originally stated it like a fact instead of your personal advice, I already mentioned that. My second problem is that you imply that tanky supports are more forgiving and easier to play, which is 100% bullshit. I completely agree that if you're not confident on the role in question you should pick something relatively easy, but Janna is much easier (and much more forgiving) than Blitzcrank, Thresh or Leona. Thresh really requires you to master him (I think his winrate for people playing <25 games with him is about 40%) and though Leona and Blitzcrank are relatively simple in their core gameplay, they can backfire horribly and arguably in some aspects more than Janna. ...I think Janna on average is one of the champions with the least amount of deaths. All of her spells actually make her incredibly forgiving for positioning mistakes (the most common in low-Elo in my experience)[/quote] Vynertje, I partly agree and partially disagree with your comments comparing [[janna]] to tanks for players new to the support role. First, I agree that [[thresh]] has a high skill cap, and I want to set aside [[blitzcrank]] as he's less of a tank and more of something unique in his own right. However, I do want to tell of my own experience as a silver player first playing [[janna]] and the experience of my brother who is a low bronze player who tried [[janna]] at my recommendation but gave up on her. You're right, of course, that [[janna]] tends to have a small number of deaths, so that's a point in her favor for a new player. However, I have to say that it took me 30+ games before I really "got" [[janna]]. Yes, even a new player is unlikely to die a lot while playing [[janna]], but at the same time it's really easy for a new player to be and feel practically useless playing her. My early games involved acting as a shield bot (often randomly) and sending out the occational Q tornado. While I didn't die much, I really was quite useless. [[janna]]'s ultimate seemed cool, and I thought "Wow! I can flash in and scatter the entire enemy team!" But four out of five times, this messed up my allies more than the enemy team and often ended with me dying nearly instantly after the ult cast. My brother had a similar experience of feeling useless and not getting why [[janna]] was considered so strong. It was only after quite a number of games and watching some videos before I finally "got" [[janna]]. Once I started treating her as an extension of my adc - being a crowd control bot constantly keeping enemies off my adc (preferably [[vayne]]) - then I started having real success with her. However, as a player just picking [[janna]] up for the first time, she was not as easy to "get" as you seem to think. Contrast this with, say, [[leona]]. Her kit is a really straight-forward faceroll kit. If you use the kit at the wrong time, you die and you get that immediate feedback that tells you, "OK, I shouldn't charge someone that far away from my adc" or "I can't survive that long in the middle of the entire enemy team." But, if you use it at the right time, you also get that immediate feedback that tells you, "Yeah, perfect! I locked down that enemy!" or "Perfect! I protected my adc flawlessly there!" Her kit is very easy to understand, and there's a steady learning progression that occurs as you learn when to charge in and when not to. I believe similar statements could be said for other tanks like [[braum]] and [[tahm kench]]. I agree with your general sentiment that a player should play the kind of champion that fits their own playstyle. However, I think you overestimate how easy it is for a new player to pick up [[janna]] and play her well.[/quote] I think I never said it's incredibly easy to play Janna (others did), I said she's easier to play effectively than Leona and other tanky supports. Anyway, I don't really get the point you're trying to make. Any champion requires a number of games to get used to, Janna and Leona are no exception. They simply differ in what exactly makes the champion more challenging to play. Janna requires a different mindset from many other champions (as you said she needs to be played as an extension of your ADC) whereas Leona requires you to be able to spot these opportunities and decisively pull the trigger.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]Vynnie, could you describe lane swaps a little bit? I played a game recently where I swapped with my top lane, and it kinda worked out for us, but i'm not totally sure. My team: poppy, soraka, ezreal, Viktor, Mundo (jg) Opponent team: Darius, janna, Lucian, LeBlanc, gragas. What role do supports play in lane swaps? I know in general that Lane swaps are okay if your lanes got countered, but I don't quite know what role a support plays in the lane swap. Should I try to lane swap more often if I'm playing a strong roamer (thresh, Leona)[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=utopus]Vynnie, could you describe lane swaps a little bit? I played a game recently where I swapped with my top lane, and it kinda worked out for us, but i'm not totally sure. My team: poppy, soraka, ezreal, Viktor, Mundo (jg) Opponent team: Darius, janna, Lucian, LeBlanc, gragas. What role do supports play in lane swaps? I know in general that Lane swaps are okay if your lanes got countered, but I don't quite know what role a support plays in the lane swap. Should I try to lane swap more often if I'm playing a strong roamer (thresh, Leona)[/quote] I generally don't recommend laneswapping in anything that's not high-elo ranked 5's (rip) because games quickly turn into clown fiesta's where you can't rely on your own personal skill to win a game. If your jungler and top laner don't exactly know what to do it's going to be incredibly hard to pull it off correctly. Anyway, the process of laneswaps (and what a support generally does): [list] [*]Level 1, starting 1:40: prevent enemy from taking more than one camp on your strong side. The idea is that your jungle+top duo clears from your strong side to the enemy's jungle on your strong side. If you let the enemy start at their weak side you risk getting triple-buffed because they can then control your weak side jungle. You can usually just walk in their jungle at 1:40, they generally cannot take camp+buff if you're disrupting them. Your ADC can theoretically also come and take the camp with you if you managed to stop them. [*]After this there are usually two options. One is that your ADC freezes the wave from the beginning (by holding the enemy wave) and just tries to fully deny the enemy while you can roam mid with top/jungle. This is no longer a viable strategy in competitive because mid laners will simply hang towards their strong side, but can work in lower-Elo. The other is to fast-push (most common) and take the top tower - if the enemy top (and possibly jungle) decide to stay you can usually dive 4v1 (sometimes also 4v2). If the enemy doesn't stay, you send your jungler to farm while you take the tower with 3. The trick is then to let the wave reset, let the top laner catch the wave while you and your ADC rotate to bot lane again and either repeat process or go back to standard lanes. Going back to standard lanes would be in your favour because your top can get a freeze while the 2v2 lane can just push it to reset (a low lvl top laner cannot do this deep into the enemy territory). Another option is that both teams invert the situation and return to a fast push, just in different lanes. [*]Whatever happens after this depends on how well you played the laneswap. If everything went well (very rare in solo queue!) teams generally either swap to mid and send their mid to a sidelane (1-3-1) or return to standard lanes and proceed as usual. In competitive these kind of laneswaps often create a stalemate, but in regular games I'd expect there to be a team that clearly got the better laneswap (for example because one team failed to bounce wave properly) which should quickly snowball.[/list] Does this help any?[/quote]