Jungle monsters and buffs "ownership"

[quote=Bouboupiste]Hello, I started this thread to have your opinions (and arguiments if you have time to explain your opinions) as i could find no thread related to this; thanks in advance for taking the time to read everything before commenting, as i'll try to detail and give examples to explain what i mean The question is quite simple, but hard to answer: Who is the "owner" of the buffs and jungle camps? by this question I mean: no one will go farming ( i mean farming fully and not just taking cs while protecting the lane until the laner is back) the solotop's lane as a jungler, If any lane belong to a player, who owns the right to give/takes buffs and neutral camps? (exept the very early clears that will let the oncerned camp respawn before the jungler gets to it) In my opinion, neutral camps and buffs in your jungler belong to your jungler, here is why: [b][u]Neutral camps:[/u][/b] either your jungles goes full tank or bruiser (in general, i'm avoiding particular cases ) If he goes full tank, OR is heavily needing items ( at this time i'm thinking about hecarim) , he will have a slower clear than bruiser (exepting the ones who are items dependant) type junglers. This includes he will have a really limited time for getting gold and experience. So if you take his camps, you will either: make him lose straight gold and exp (by not taking the camp when he could), or make him lose gold and exp relatively: he will wait for the respawn, during this time he will not be ganking or taking down other camps. This will be compensated partly by GP5, but he still loses efficiency If your jungle goes bruiser, the problem might be less important, as faster clear times/dueling ability/counter jungling potential/heavy ganking potential* can get him back a part of the money, but he will still have less gold than he could have. *by heavy ganking potential i'm talking about gankers with fast ganks (mostly by dealing the ennemy some nice damage along woth the laner(s)) and good mobility (for doing it as much as possible) [u][b]Blue and red buffs[/b][/u] In my opinion, buffs too belong* to the jungler: The jungler often have a more global sight of the game (while laners sometime forget that other lanes and minimap exists (this explaining the constant need for calling ss/mia, while you can often see people that are not on their lanes , but this is not the topic of this thread) ) As jungler have global vision, they can often say who needs buffs the most, and who shall not get them (all junglers have seen a mid taking the blue while they told him not to, and die in the 20 firsts seconds of having it); And most people do forget that they are some heavy mana-starving top laners, and that they can need it much more than the midlaner. (Personnal example: saw lots of katarinas, the ones who did the best was the ones that were ready to let someone else take the blue, while a huge part of the other ones failed hardly at laning even with it) Same thing with the red buff, the slow can be more usefull on the jungler/toplaner that on the AD carry. *I mean he is the one chosing who gets them, not that he should take all of them (If you see any language related mistake, please correct me)[/quote]

[quote=BusDriver210]I usually main jungle and when it comes to buffs I enjoy giving them to my laners after my first clear. Red usually stays mine, but I often will give it away to secure a advantage in lane. Blue obviously goes to my mid, but I don't wait around for them to casually waltz over. Personally whenever I play I just follow the thought process, All farm is my farm. That being said, its a junglers job to bring advantage to their lanes. Buffs provide quite a large advantage. The only issue I have with people clearing my camps is when I need them for EXP, but I counter jungle a great deal so it usually doesn't matter. *Edit: Also you should at least have one gp10 items while playing a jungle champion. It keeps up your overall gold and allows you more time to gank/roam.[/quote]

[quote=Bouboupiste]I use at least one and often two (because both [[randuin's omen]] and [[shurelya's reverie]] are nice on junglers i like to play, to compensate a under-average mobility or to get to the highers levels or pony riding). I'm asking the question beause i got somehow tired of having to smite-steal the blue/red buff more and more not to give him freely to the ennemy beause one of my team mates is doing bad during the game and doesn't seem to understand that it is too risky to give him. EDIT: BTW I also main jungle, but i think i need to improve by quite a big bit[/quote]

[quote=Pølsemanden]When to keep the buffs for yourself: You got off to a bad start and you really need to somehow get back in the game. You desperately need level 6 and the buff would give it to you(shaco lvl 6 after blue for doing dragon, so you can start the dragon right after) this is 90% of the time not an issue since 1 you're already level 6 at the time and 2 you're not in a timely manner to do dragon, but i've done it 3 times in total(out of 100'ish games with shaco) Your mid laner sucks and will just feed the buff to the enemy, i've been on both parts of this. Either getting to pick mid as i was last pick so i just fed the enemy mid. Or where my mid sucked and i didn't want a midlaner with even more blue-buff time. First clear: Most of your first clears are situations where you want the buffs for yourself, not always but most of the time, since your cleartime would be disastrous without it. When to give them All other than above mentioned. Regarding gold/5's they're really good on most junglers, but since i play shaco for most of my jungle games i don't buy them.[/quote]

[quote=Bouboupiste]i do think the way you do, but does anyone have something to say about other laners taking camps? (my daily whine: once played in a team where mid took wraiths as soon as respawning, top took every golem and most often someone took my wolves too. Wost game i played ever, it took me more than 20 minutes to get HoG. Any advises in case my team mates have a bad game and start taking the neutral buffs? (I usually play as nautilus or hecarim, so my counter-jungling potential is nothing, unless the ennemy jungler is a amumu)[/quote]

[quote=The Overmyynd]It really all depends. Basics first. Blue buff goes to the mid after first or sometimes second ownership by you (the jungler). Red buff is nice to give to your ADC whenever possible, but is not nearly as important as giving blue to your mid. The rest of the 'minor' camps belong to you until late game, when its a free for all on who needs farm the most. However. There are some circumstances in which wraiths/wolves will go to your mid as well, and some people happily give golems to the bot lane/top lane (color respective). Why? If you are playing a "support" jungler (like [[amumu]], [[maokai]], or [[malphite]] for just a few examples) and you have your GP10s, you don't necessarily NEED a whole lot of farm to be effective in teamfights. Your APC and ADC need all the farm they can get their hands on. Giving these camps away is by no means a necessity, or even truly commonplace, but it HAS been done to great advantage overall (such as when Scarra achieved 300 farm in 24 minutes with [[karthus]] and proceeded to dominate the entire mid-late game in the tourney). If you know your mid/adc can absolutely DOMINATE late game, give them all the farm you can spare. It will work out in the long run. Otherwise, it is wise to give your Blue to mid after first or second clear, both to ensure their lane dominance and to keep them from raging at you. As per your final question, if you have an energy based mid and a mana based top who needs to spam spells, go ahead and give it to top. I've never really seen this done, but it is a good thought and one you should keep in mind. Hope this helped![/quote]

[quote=caucheka]coincidently i like playing junglers that have a reliance on blue buff. so it really pains when mid thinks they should have each and every blue buff. if im going to give you blue buff i will ping your ass and then ping blue. otherwise fuck off its mine.[/quote]

[quote=Bouboupiste][quote=The Overmyynd] It really all depends. Basics first. Blue buff goes to the mid after first or sometimes second ownership by you (the jungler). Red buff is nice to give to your ADC whenever possible, but is not nearly as important as giving blue to your mid. The rest of the 'minor' camps belong to you until late game, when its a free for all on who needs farm the most. However. There are some circumstances in which wraiths/wolves will go to your mid as well, and some people happily give golems to the bot lane/top lane (color respective). Why? If you are playing a "support" jungler (like [[amumu]], [[maokai]], or [[malphite]] for just a few examples) and you have your GP10s, you don't necessarily NEED a whole lot of farm to be effective in teamfights. Your APC and ADC need all the farm they can get their hands on. Giving these camps away is by no means a necessity, or even truly commonplace, but it HAS been done to great advantage overall (such as when Scarra achieved 300 farm in 24 minutes with [[karthus]] and proceeded to dominate the entire mid-late game in the tourney). If you know your mid/adc can absolutely DOMINATE late game, give them all the farm you can spare. It will work out in the long run. Otherwise, it is wise to give your Blue to mid after first or second clear, both to ensure their lane dominance and to keep them from raging at you. As per your final question, if you have an energy based mid and a mana based top who needs to spam spells, go ahead and give it to top. I've never really seen this done, but it is a good thought and one you should keep in mind. Hope this helped! [/quote] This was a really helpfull answer, but one question is still there: If you find out that your apc/adc are underleveled/outfarmed/fed the ennemy, there are 2 points that still worry me: 1) Is there any rule of thumb to say wether letting them buffs will be too risquy? (i'm a pretty bad player so i can't find one out) 2) If you are playing a "support" jungler (that will, if i'm right, become the tank), unlesg you're knowing exactly what you do, you'll have a better game keeping your camps, am I right? (I might look like asking silly questions and all, but after being told l2jungle, I thought i'd better be sure of what i'm doing anyways)[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]The thing is guys, if you're playing AP and your opponent is getting blue buff every time while you aren't, it can become extremely hard to keep up in cs and stop them roaming because they will shove hard while being free to harass you as much as they like. You won't be able to keep up with the pushing power of many APs without your own blue and they'll probably whittle your health down too. Also, if your mid lane is already behind you're basically completely giving up on them by not giving them blue. Perhaps they're losing so hard they just feed it right away, but perhaps it helps them catch up and get back into the game. Giving red buff is less of a big deal, but you generally want it on your AD by mid-late game. If your AD is strong you might want to give it to them earlier, red buff pretty much means your bot lane win any trade for free and can chase forever. It's like a super-[[phage]].[/quote]

[quote=Bouboupiste][quote=Luther3000] The thing is guys, if you're playing AP and your opponent is getting blue buff every time while you aren't, it can become extremely hard to keep up in cs and stop them roaming because they will shove hard while being free to harass you as much as they like. You won't be able to keep up with the pushing power of many APs without your own blue and they'll probably whittle your health down too. Also, if your mid lane is already behind you're basically completely giving up on them by not giving them blue. Perhaps they're losing so hard they just feed it right away, but perhaps it helps them catch up and get back into the game. [/quote] each time I gave a blue to mids in this situation, it just beame worst because both ennemies jungler and midlaner had blue buff, and then they unleash hell on lanes, so i am asking the question. I'm not deniying that it is giving up your mid, but sometimes it looks better to give him up[/quote]