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Veigar Build Guide by europeanorigin

Veigar : A thoughtful build for him

Veigar : A thoughtful build for him

Updated on September 11, 2012
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League of Legends Build Guide Author europeanorigin Build Guide By europeanorigin 27 9 27,877 Views 14 Comments
27 9 27,877 Views 14 Comments League of Legends Build Guide Author europeanorigin Veigar Build Guide By europeanorigin Updated on September 11, 2012
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1
europeanorigin (7) | June 29, 2011 11:03pm

Why would u stack archangels? They don't stack anymore. Also why no, deathfire's grasp?


They still partially stack !
It is true that you won't have +2800 mana with 2 archangel staff, but 1800 mana.
On the other hand, the 3% mana in AP stacks ! So for 3 Archangel's staff, you'll have +2200 mana and +333 AP (45*3+ 0.09*2200). And that's without even considering your natural mana base nor The rabadon's death cap.
If you take into account all of that, you'll have +75 MP5, 3490 mana, and + 578 AP! Almost as much as if you had bought 3 other rabadon's deathcap, plus mana regen, plus loads of mana for less gold.
Therefore stacking Archangel's staff is very efficient.

However, I never said you should stack it, I just said it's a possibility to take into account, which is made possible with this build. The idea is depending on what you are facing, you should go for one or another possible builds : Void staff, if stacking MR ; Frozen Heart, if fed AD carry ; Archangel's Staff, if no blue or if you are quite safe ; Lich Bane, works really well on stacking MR AP casters, or if you want to increase both your damage and survivability.

DFG is another item one could take ! Indeed I said in an earlier post that I did recommend DFG. However, it would be instead of lich bane, and the construction of the build is completely different, (kage right after tear of the goddess, DFG after sorcerer's shoes...). Therefore, it would be a bit more complicated to include it into this build. The thing with DFG is that, if you want it to be an important part of your build, you have to build it early, while all the other possibilities for my build are to be considered in late game, when every one has already started to show what he wants to build.

I don't dislike DFG, and I do not not recommend it ;)
It's just that it is another build possible, which is hard to mix with this one.


Don't worry, I'm starting to think about adding a DFG section to my build, explaining when you should go for it and when you shouldn't (yes there are times like that ^^).

I hope you now see why one could stack Archangel's staff.
1
Phoenix General | June 29, 2011 8:25pm
Why would u stack archangels? They don't stack anymore. Also why no, deathfire's grasp?
1
Gobmas | June 28, 2011 8:48pm
I will admit, I was skeptical going into reading this guide (partially due to the fact that is was about veigar). But you really make a good case for your build and explained how to play him well. I'm going to have to take another look at veigar sometime. +1
1
Trophycase (77) | June 27, 2011 12:25pm

@trophycase : It is obvious that in the end the gain with magic penetration is better than the 10 AP bonus. But at this point the gain in damage isn't that crazy (as you already have other MP items) and farming easily early game is what's most important with Veigar.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't take the Archaic Knowledge mastery, it's a good mastery, if you don't plan on having many magic penetration items. I consider that having 2 items is far enough. That's my point of view.

Thank you for supporting it with this example.


Yeah well the point I was trying to make was that it is only a damage increase of 13, so it really comes down to a matter of personal preference. But especially in early game, that 10 ability power can help you get more kills/farm than you would without it, whereas late game the damage difference is miniscule either one is fine to be honest.

It is a bit funny though, I had always considered the ignite mastery to be out of the question when compared to the magic penetration until I actually looked at it right now. I was the same way with the Greed and Perseverence masteries.
1
europeanorigin (7) | June 27, 2011 12:22pm
@trophycase : It is obvious that in the end the gain with magic penetration is better than the 10 AP bonus. But at this point the gain in damage isn't that crazy (as you already have other MP items) and farming easily early game is what's most important with Veigar.

I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't take the Archaic Knowledge mastery, it's a good mastery, if you don't plan on having many magic penetration items. I consider that having 2 items is far enough. That's my point of view.

Thank you for supporting it with this example.

@galfureye : DFG is great and I do really like it. It would be an alternative to Lich Bane, but lich bane has my preference for its 7% ms bonus, as you gain more survability.
Besides when being chased, the passive of lich bane becomes really cool.

But berserk style is good too and in that case, I'd recommend to pick a kage right after the tear of the goddess. And to complete it after the rabadon's deathcap. (that way your gain in gold won't be ridiculous).

Have fun !
1
Trophycase (77) | June 27, 2011 12:04pm
With ~100 opponent magic resist and about 280 ability power, with Archaic Knowledge you will do ~13 more damage than with the ignite mastery (this with Marks, Sorc Shoes, and Void Staff). So if you think the extra ability power on the ignite mastery will help you get more last hits, then by all means go for it.
1
Galfureye (32) | June 27, 2011 11:55am
Why no deathfires grasp? other than that good guide
1
Galfureye (32) | June 27, 2011 11:53am



I do agree that magic penetration seems better in late game. Once again I did some maths. Just to see how much and when would the magic penetration become better than an ignite spell. Indeed I suppose that if you don't take burning Embers, you don't take Ignite as a spell, but flash instead (increased survivability).

I suppose the goal is to kill an enemy, only one, and then retreat for a few seconds. You can then defend defend your allies by firing some dark matters and baleful strikes, but that has not been taken into account for simplicity purpose.

So the formula to see the gain in damage is D = 1-(100 + y*x)/(100 + y*(x+dx)) where y is the MR of the target, x the initial amount of magic penetration, dx the gain in magic resist thanks to archaic knowledge. [* : see below for the demonstration of the formula]

With the build I propose you have :
x = 56.1% of magic penetration
x+dx = 62.7% of magic penetration after adding the Archaic Knowledge.

Let's suppose your opponent has 100 MR. then the gain in damage is about 4.2%.
if he has 200 MR. the gain in damage is about 6.2%.

On the other hand, let's see how much damage deals an Ignite spell : 50+20*18 = 410 damage. We'd like that increase in damage to be inferior to 6.2% of the total output damage. Therefore, the total output needs to be over 6600 ! And to not kill him before being more efficient, it needs to have 3000 HP. So 3000 HP and 200 MR ? How's that not a tank? (I'd even say it's a Rammus) But let's suppose it isn't.
If you consider the total damage you can do with your spells, you get 1080 + (0.6+1+1.2)*z, where z is the ability power. In the end, you'll need over 1976 AP to be more efficient with magic penetration than with Ignite!

So I think that choosing Ignite + Burning Embers is better than Flash + Archaic Knowledge.
If you take Ignite + Archaic Knowledge, you'll do less damage in early game, but you'll have an increase of 4.2% (200 MR is way too much to be realistic except on tank), so if your opponent has 3000 HP, you'll have to do 126 more damage (if you don't have Archaic Knowledge), so about three auto attacks on a 150 armor opponent.
And if you are attacking an enemy with 100 MR and 150 AR, and that it's not a tank, I'd say that he has a low damage output, enough for you not to die right away and blast him once again.


That is why I think Magic penetration is an overrated capacity. It doesn't stack well at all and therefore you shouldn't try to stack it. The 2 items Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff plus Greater Mark of Magic Penetration are far enough sufficient.

Demonstration of the formula :
the formula to get the damage taken out of the MR :
DMGT = 100/(100+MR)
if there is MP (magic penetration) :
DMGT = 100/(100+MR*MP)

the formula to find the total MP :
= 1-(1-0.2)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.0855) [boots][void staff]
= 56.1%
and with Archaic Knowledge :
= 1-(1-0.2)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.0855)*(1-0.15) [boots][void staff][mastery]
=62.7%

So we have two DMGT, called DMGT1 and DMGT2 :
the formula for the increase in damage taken is
(DMGT1-DMGT2)/(DMGT1).
if you put all the formula together you get the formula on top of this post.


my brain hurts
1
europeanorigin (7) | June 27, 2011 4:52am
Quoted:
You are not taking into account opponents at higher level that will have magic resist. Your 10 bonus AP you get from your ignite spell won't do anyhting. YOur example involves someone at level one. Yes at level one it may be better...but later in the game when people got MR...your extra 10 AP will do absolutely nothing. Your spells will do alot more with bonus Magic pen at higher level. Much better on veigar.

If you were playing against a relatively smart team they would just stack MR on you and you are screwed.

That 10 bonus AP you get you can easily farm on veigar. Thats the great thing about him.


I do agree that magic penetration seems better in late game. Once again I did some maths. Just to see how much and when would the magic penetration become better than an ignite spell. Indeed I suppose that if you don't take burning Embers, you don't take Ignite as a spell, but flash instead (increased survivability).

I suppose the goal is to kill an enemy, only one, and then retreat for a few seconds. You can then defend defend your allies by firing some dark matters and baleful strikes, but that has not been taken into account for simplicity purpose.

So the formula to see the gain in damage is D = 1-(100 + y*x)/(100 + y*(x+dx)) where y is the MR of the target, x the initial amount of magic penetration, dx the gain in magic resist thanks to archaic knowledge. [* : see below for the demonstration of the formula]

With the build I propose you have :
x = 56.1% of magic penetration
x+dx = 62.7% of magic penetration after adding the Archaic Knowledge.

Let's suppose your opponent has 100 MR. then the gain in damage is about 4.2%.
if he has 200 MR. the gain in damage is about 6.2%.

On the other hand, let's see how much damage deals an Ignite spell : 50+20*18 = 410 damage. We'd like that increase in damage to be inferior to 6.2% of the total output damage. Therefore, the total output needs to be over 6600 ! And to not kill him before being more efficient, it needs to have 3000 HP. So 3000 HP and 200 MR ? How's that not a tank? (I'd even say it's a Rammus) But let's suppose it isn't.
If you consider the total damage you can do with your spells, you get 1080 + (0.6+1+1.2)*z, where z is the ability power. In the end, you'll need over 1976 AP to be more efficient with magic penetration than with Ignite!

So I think that choosing Ignite + Burning Embers is better than Flash + Archaic Knowledge.
If you take Ignite + Archaic Knowledge, you'll do less damage in early game, but you'll have an increase of 4.2% (200 MR is way too much to be realistic except on tank), so if your opponent has 3000 HP, you'll have to do 126 more damage (if you don't have Archaic Knowledge), so about three auto attacks on a 150 armor opponent.
And if you are attacking an enemy with 100 MR and 150 AR, and that it's not a tank, I'd say that he has a low damage output, enough for you not to die right away and blast him once again.


That is why I think Magic penetration is an overrated capacity. It doesn't stack well at all and therefore you shouldn't try to stack it. The 2 items Sorcerer's Shoes and Void Staff plus Greater Mark of Magic Penetration are far enough sufficient.

Demonstration of the formula :
the formula to get the damage taken out of the MR :
DMGT = 100/(100+MR)
if there is MP (magic penetration) :
DMGT = 100/(100+MR*MP)

the formula to find the total MP :
= 1-(1-0.2)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.0855) [boots][void staff]
= 56.1%
and with Archaic Knowledge :
= 1-(1-0.2)*(1-0.4)*(1-0.0855)*(1-0.15) [boots][void staff][mastery]
=62.7%

So we have two DMGT, called DMGT1 and DMGT2 :
the formula for the increase in damage taken is
(DMGT1-DMGT2)/(DMGT1).
if you put all the formula together you get the formula on top of this post.
1
Demordir (6) | June 25, 2011 10:11pm

Yes! As I explained in the guide, there is no need for the 15% magic penetration on creeps as they have 0 of magic resist (well actually they have 3 when the clock hits 10 min, but that's still little).

So you can argue that I deal less damage on heroes. Most heroes have like 30-40 MR until 20 min of game (except for tanks, but Veigar doesn't go against tank alone). So its false !

Example :
At level 1, the opponent has 30 MR. if you apply the Magic Penetration mastery, you get:
30*(1-0.08)*(1-0.15) = 23.46 MR after application of the magic penetration.
With this Magic resistance, your opponent have 1-(100/(100+MR)) magic damage reduced. So basically, he takes 81% of the damage you deal to him.

If you don't have the magic penetration mastery, but the ignite mastery, you get 10 free AP, 0 magic penetration.
So your ennemy have 30*(1-0.08) = 27.6 MR. That means he takes 78% of the damage you give to him.
So the gain in damage with the magic penetration is : (81-78)/(78) = 3.3% !

But if have the 10 bonus AP, your baleful strike will deal 6 more damage.
So the increase of your attacks with ignite mastery is around (96-90)/90 = 6.6% !

Therefore, you have more interest in having the ignite spell mastery than the magic penetration mastery. It's an overrated mastery ! I agree that the gain thanks to the Ignite spell in AP gets lower and lower as the game progresses, but its burst damage and dps grows with your level, compensating for it.

If you really want magic penetration buy a void staff, and that's all. Magic penetration stacks badly, as its a multiplicative stack.

If you still don't agree with my thinking or that some part of my demonstration seems obscur, tell me !


You are not taking into account opponents at higher level that will have magic resist. Your 10 bonus AP you get from your ignite spell won't do anyhting. YOur example involves someone at level one. Yes at level one it may be better...but later in the game when people got MR...your extra 10 AP will do absolutely nothing. Your spells will do alot more with bonus Magic pen at higher level. Much better on veigar.

If you were playing against a relatively smart team they would just stack MR on you and you are screwed.

That 10 bonus AP you get you can easily farm on veigar. Thats the great thing about him.
1
europeanorigin (7) | June 23, 2011 11:04am
Yes! As I explained in the guide, there is no need for the 15% magic penetration on creeps as they have 0 of magic resist (well actually they have 3 when the clock hits 10 min, but that's still little).

So you can argue that I deal less damage on heroes. Most heroes have like 30-40 MR until 20 min of game (except for tanks, but Veigar doesn't go against tank alone). So its false !

Example :
At level 1, the opponent has 30 MR. if you apply the Magic Penetration mastery, you get:
30*(1-0.08)*(1-0.15) = 23.46 MR after application of the magic penetration.
With this Magic resistance, your opponent have 1-(100/(100+MR)) magic damage reduced. So basically, he takes 81% of the damage you deal to him.

If you don't have the magic penetration mastery, but the ignite mastery, you get 10 free AP, 0 magic penetration.
So your ennemy have 30*(1-0.08) = 27.6 MR. That means he takes 78% of the damage you give to him.
So the gain in damage with the magic penetration is : (81-78)/(78) = 3.3% !

But if have the 10 bonus AP, your baleful strike will deal 6 more damage.
So the increase of your attacks with ignite mastery is around (96-90)/90 = 6.6% !

Therefore, you have more interest in having the ignite spell mastery than the magic penetration mastery. It's an overrated mastery ! I agree that the gain thanks to the Ignite spell in AP gets lower and lower as the game progresses, but its burst damage and dps grows with your level, compensating for it.

If you really want magic penetration buy a void staff, and that's all. Magic penetration stacks badly, as its a multiplicative stack.

If you still don't agree with my thinking or that some part of my demonstration seems obscur, tell me !
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