Shaco - E or Q?

[quote=Kurt_Ottman]^ What she said ^^[/quote]

[quote=xIchi]I do not know how you guys play. But maxing E won't make you go out of mana at all. If you gank one lane with full mana, you are most likely to end the gank with half of your mana left. Even without Manabuff. The point is that before you can seriously gank (well it's Shaco) you need to do some jungling first. -------- All you guys are talking about is that Two-Shiv is the last resort for flashing enemies. HUH? Are your enemies really that bad to use flash althought they do not have enoug health to survive a 70 Damage Dagger trolololol? In most cases the laner will get away with more than 20% Hp, the dagger is just perfect for these moments. And as I already stated in my maths the difference between lvling Q first or E is HUGE! While Q Damage only increases by around 30 damage, leveling E increases the damage by 95 damage. All you guys read is: 180% Damage ( YEHAA MORE THAN 100%!!) and Critical Strike (YEAHAA CRITICAL STRIKE) But it is NOT a real crit. It crits for 180% and not 200%. Thats less than a actual crit... Btw. If your enemies are not too stupid. Then Shaco has to gank with using Q first, otherwise he won't even be able to come close ...[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]@EpicMF Even if you do that it cannot be called "spamming". Ofc JitB is the best way to do that, but you wont need to unnecessarily drain your mana with Deceive, that's just rubbish. And without a reason like being chased or sth, wasting mana on wall hopping to save what? 1-2 secs? Not likely. And yeah I do know how to gank, that's why I know that you can't just walk in on the enemy and save every CD in more than 5% of the time. And without slowing an enemy beforehand you won't be able to hit him with Two-Shiv after he flashes, just saying. But I kinda understand you guys. If you abuse Deceive that much every game you're likely to get into a mana pinch. And just on the sideline: If you use JitBs in the jungle for farming you'll have mana problems nevertheless, forcing you to take at least your first blue anyway.[/quote]

[quote=Kurt_Ottman]The first blue should always go to the jungler, unless the jungler is [[Tryndamere]] or [[Rumble]]. You use [[jack in the box]] in the jungle to avoid taking damage, by waiting for the fear, then using [[Deceive]] to make them focus your box instead of you. You can then also hit them from behind, which will make your jungling 25% more effective for a couple of hits, which becomes alot. You won't save 2-3 seconds if used to get over a long wall like the double golem wall for example. Or the dragon wall. Trust me, if you level [[Deceive]] first, even though you use one [[Jack in the box]] at every camp, you will rarely have mana problems because [[Deceive]] costs almost nothing.[/quote]

[quote=Kurt_Ottman][quote=xIchi] If you gank one lane with full mana, you are most likely to end the gank with half of your mana left. Even with no mana buff. [/quote] If you max [[Deceive]] first, you will most likely end up with 90% of your mana instead, which means you can go to mid and gank afterwards, without having to worry about a thing. No, you won't use 50% of your mana with [[Deceive]] level 1 - [[Two-shiv poison]] level 3 combo, but you will lose a considerable amount, which when you don't have mana buff, can lead to you having to go back ever so often, instead of staying for more experience/gold and map presence. But the most viable argument for maxing [[Deceive]] first is really that, after all, is your best escape-mechanism, so if you run out of mana, you can't do dangerous things like solo-pushing a lane with 4 Dude Potentials, like you could if you had [[Deceive]]. The mana cost will help you have [[Deceive]] ready for when you get into a pinch. I have no idea how many times I've barely escaped by getting 50 mana just in time.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]You're implying that you're getting off more than 1 deceive in a gank. This shouldn't be the case. You should only need 2 skills to ganks successfully. Q to get in range, W to block escape routes. Maybe E to finish someone. You don't have a small enough mana pool that using deceive is 50% of your mana, even coupled with another skill.[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]Let it rest. I already mentioned all of that to him. Some ppl dont bother trying to understand others even after asking questions.[/quote]

[quote=xIchi][quote=Darcurse] Let it rest. I already mentioned all of that to him. Some ppl dont bother trying to understand others even after asking questions. [/quote] And a mathemathic proof, which was kinda ignored o0[/quote]

[quote=Capn_Evan]I have written a guide where I max [[Deceive]] first, this is mainly because I play [[Shaco]] as a pusher, which means I need to kill minions as quickly as possible using every means, including abilities. This will leave me very mana hungry, and maxing [[Deceive]] will save my life often because I still have enough mana to use it for a quick escape, which makes me able to perform bolder offensive stunts earlier in the game. If you play [[Shaco]] purely as a ganker, you're not playing him right ;)[/quote]

[quote=Pølsemanden]Am i the only one maxing boxes first oO? W>E>Q? Q->Less mana on deceive, a ability scaling with AD: Not really being effective to max before 200 ad. W->More dragon control(more cc and damage from the boxes), More cc and 2nd most damage for ganks, more cc and damage for 1v1's. E->2nd in CC and best damage for ganks. Remeber u use "Q" to dodge the ward the enemy laner put out. So half the time, ur "Q" proc is not even gonna go off.. And for Capn_Evan, with such an argument i don't even get why u would write a shaco guide......[/quote]