Click to open network menu
Join or Log In
Mobafire logo

Join the leading League of Legends community. Create and share Champion Guides and Builds.

Create an MFN Account






Or

MOBAFire's first Mini Guide Contest of Season 14 is here! Create or update guides for the 30 featured champions and compete for up to $200 in prizes! šŸ†
's Forum Avatar

Your guides are ****.

Creator: throatslasher August 31, 2012 12:37pm

This thread is locked

PLEASE NOTE: This thread has been locked by the moderators. You cannot reply to it.

zjozwiak
<Member>
zjozwiak's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
61
Joined:
Apr 6th, 2012
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 6:06pm | Report
The ideas are great and everything, but what I loved about Moba was that it was catered for noobs, which was exactly what I was when I found it. Since I found it, I've moved on to my own builds, and now I mostly just glance over at them if I'm trying a new character, or I'm here for the community. And that's what I really love about Moba.

Thanks to jhoihoi for the banner!
Check out my Vlad guide!
lifebaka
<Member>
lifebaka's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1126
Joined:
Dec 12th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 6:58pm | Report
This is going to be long, and I'm probably going to end up rehashing things that have already been said on the vet forums (which I cannot read) and others, but I think there are some things that really need saying about these ideas. I'll summarize with indented TL;DR passages, for people who dislike huge walls of text.

First, I'd like to discuss solo queue Elo as an indication of skill. Elo was designed as a way to measure chess players skill levels; anyone can check Wikipedia for a history and brief overview of the system. It has been adapted to LoL (though the exact nature of the adaption is stuck inside a Riot black box), but using it as a measure of anything substantial is highly problematic. There are several reasons for this. To start, the Elo system works by approximation. That is, it works by gradually getting players close and closer to the rating that they "should" have. Mathematically, the percentage chance that a player's rating is actually representative of their skill level logistically approaches 100% as the number of games that player has played approaches infinity (I don't have the LaTex tools to display the mathematical symbols for this statement here). Since it is not possible to have played an infinite number of games, a player's Elo cannot ever be said to actually represent their skill level, though it can represent it with a high measure of accuracy.

However, the Elo system was created for a game with a much higher correlation of skill to game wins than LoL. In chess, the better player is much more likely to win the game. In LoL, one better player can easily lose a game due to mistakes his teammates make, even while playing perfectly himself. Even a group of better players can lose to a group of inferior players if those inferior players work better as a team. The interaction between players, the teamwork elements of the game, the disparate skill levels of players, and the hundreds of inter-related game mechanics all make LoL a game which does not take well to simplistic mathematical models; this is why theorycrafting is based heavily upon logical reasoning rather than only mathematics. All of these elements, together, make it less likely that a player's solo queue Elo rating is actually representative of their skill.

LoL's Elo system is further complicated by the fact that Elo change per game is rather large compared to the Elo bracket sizes. At 10 Elo change per game, it only takes a net 12 or 13 wins to go from silver to gold, for instance; this can be accomplished by a few days of winning streaks, which doesn't necessarily correlate (and probably doesn't actually correlate) to a player having suddenly gotten better than, say, an additional 10% of the total population of players playing ranked games. The size of minimal Elo change per game puts a hard cap on how accurate the system can ever be at properly predicting a player's skill level.

Together, this means that a player's solo queue Elo is only vaguely correlated with their skill level, at best; it's more correlated with the likelihood that a player will win games, which isn't at all synonymous with their skill level, as more than simply player skill is involved in winning games (see above). Using solo queue Elo as a measure of a player's worth, therefore, is extremely problematic. Using it as a measure of anything else, such as using it to measure the quality of a player's opinions without looking at the opinions themselves, is worse. Using a lack of solo queue Elo as evidence of anything is so obviously fallacious as to be deliberately dishonest. (See, in both cases, ad hominem.)

TL;DR: It would take an extremely large number of games for Elo to be accurate. Elo is a simple system designed for a simpler game than LoL. LoL doesn't take well to simple mathematical systems. Game wins and player skill are not 100% related, for a lot of reasons. LoL's Elo system is also bad at telling the difference between winning streaks and actual gains in skill. Therefore, Elo is not a good measure of player skill, even if it's the best we have.

Second, I'd like to go over a few things about online communities, like LoL, SoloMid, and MOBAFire. Online communities tend to have fairly high turnover rates in their members. People join new online games (such as LoL) all the time, leaving old ones, and in turn join new satellite communities that revolve around those games (such as SoloMid and MOBAFire). Because a large portion of any given online community may leave at any point in time, to join another online community or for another reason, online communities thrive on being open and welcoming. Online communities which become gated through barriers to entry tend to become stagnant and eventually die, as they cannot gain new members to replace those who leave.

I bring up this issue with gated communities and barriers to entry because the main suggestion to correct the quality of MOBAFire's guides sets up barriers to entry to the MOBAFire community. That is, the idea of setting up a new type of guide that is written only by high Elo players. For one thing, I've already shown that Elo is not perfectly representative of a player's skill, even if higher Elo players tend to be better. For another, if there were guides that were displayed in a prominent way as being written only by high Elo players, it is much less likely that other guides would be read, regardless of their quality (which I bring up only because there will always be high quality guides written by low Elo or unranked players). This means that players whose Elo is not high are unlikely to bother writing guides, because they will not be read no matter how good the guide is. This means that fewer people will be becoming members of the MOBAFire community through writing guides, which would make the main way that people join the community be through reading guides; and the percent of readers who become community members is always low for any online community (see Wikipedia, for instance). This is to leave aside the issues of assembling a group of high Elo players to write or moderate guides for all champions, which is difficult (see Citizendium), of making sure that the guides stay up to date (which can be difficult if members of the high Elo group leave), of making sure that the group is and stays civil with each other and nonmembers, and of making sure that the MOBAFire community doesn't end up polarized between members of this group and nonmembers; all of these are also toxic to the community.

TL;DR: Online communities frequently lose members. To thrive, they need to quickly replace these members. Thus, anything that makes it harder to join a community is bad for it. The idea of setting up a new type of guide written only by high Elo players will, effectively, make it less likely that people join MOBAFire, which is bad for the community here. There are also other issues involved, which could make the idea worse.

There are other things that I could say about other things in this thread, but I'll leave them for now. I suppose this post is already long enough (and took enough of my time).
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.

My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
Vavena
<Member>
Vavena's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1960
Joined:
Jun 24th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 6:59pm | Report
Oh god why? A wall of text.

lifebaka
<Member>
lifebaka's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1126
Joined:
Dec 12th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:02pm | Report
Vavena wrote:

Oh god why? A wall of text.

See my sig. If you don't want to read it, just don't.
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.

My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
Vavena
<Member>
Vavena's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1960
Joined:
Jun 24th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:04pm | Report
I know I saw, relaaax~



also I read it anyways..

RaNuD
<Member>
RaNuD's Forum Avatar
Posts:
358
Joined:
Jun 21st, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:27pm | Report
lifebaka for president, I've stated it once or twice already.

Also, Mr Troatslasher (neat subtle name by the way): I love you since I am drunk, I lauged big time with my gf, trying to imagine what can of dude you can be.

Beer's good for you when you dont want to rage. I guess you could try it <3
In a thread about his own ban,
gabpin wrote:
stfu I only did that : swearing and thats why i got ban are u ****** or something ?

In a thread about toxic players,
Go be a whiny baby elsewhere. Find and abuse the ignore button. No sense stinking up this forum with your crying.
Bryun
<Magic Man>
Bryun's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
2365
Joined:
May 1st, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:30pm | Report
Vavena wrote:

I know I saw, relaaax~



also I read it anyways..



Your kitty so cute.

BusDriver210
<Member>
BusDriver210's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
906
Joined:
Feb 28th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:30pm | Report
Khazem wrote:
Haven't really read the entire thread, but I agree with most of these points (and yeah that featured Karma guide you linked is pretty bad and should not be featured).
You have some pretty good ideas but you really don't have to be such an elitist jerk to get your points across. I think you need to wake up and realize being 1900 elo doesn't make you special. People with your attitude are what makes playing at 1900 such an awful experience.
I think if you'd just change your attitude, a lot of people would listen to you cause I really think you have some very good suggestions to improve the guide system here.


I really agree with Khazem here. Yes the points throatslasher wrote are valid, but the attitude and mindset he has are the exact reason people use Mobafire instead of solomid. If you go to solomid and don't kiss ***/worship the heads of the site/community your simply shunned. This 'elitist' attitude throatslasher has is the exact reason I prefer Mobafire over Solomid.

That being said, I'm tired of the featured guides being the same for months at a time. We need a better way to rate guides and a better way to display good up and coming guides with accurate information.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
Vavena
<Member>
Vavena's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1960
Joined:
Jun 24th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:36pm | Report
Bryun wrote:



Your kitty so cute.
I know.

Bryun
<Magic Man>
Bryun's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
2365
Joined:
May 1st, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep August 31, 2012 7:42pm | Report
Vavena wrote:

I know.


conceited. <//3
I ONLY LIKE THE SHY ONES.

League of Legends Champions:

Teamfight Tactics Guide