Brutilizer - Why are AD Carries rushing this?

[quote=OTGBionicArm]I do the Black Cleaver on [[Draven]], thats why I rush it after a [[Vampiric Scepter]]. Then I do [[The Bloodthirster]], [[Phantom Dancer]], [[the black cleaver]]. Hasn't failed me yet.[/quote]

[quote=astrolia][quote=Warlemming] Because it's really brutil, obviously :> The AD Carry (singular) that BC synergies especially well on is Corki, due to his E. [/quote] Polse already commented about why this statement is incorrect, but in the future could you please actually play AD carries before you make statements like this? A lot of your comments, like the one about Shiv stacking in 7-8 seconds, suggests you only theory/math craft and rarely actually play the game or even try out the items being discussed. What's more is that this calculation doesn't factor in [b]environmental factors[/b] like how you can buy pieces of [[The Brutalizer]] separately (e.g. you start with a [[Long Sword]], get first blood, go back to town low on HP, and buy another [[Long Sword]]), how it has a lower cost than [[BF Sword]]. You also actually left out your math, so none of us have any idea what you're even doing.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]Questions: 1) Why are there no other rune pages included? Brutalizer (note the correct spelling) is stronger on carries who use full armour penetration in their runes. [[Draven]] is a great example. 2) Were skills included? [[Draven]] is again an example of an ADC who has fairly low scalings but still does all physical damage, thus benefitting a lot from arp. 3) Cleaver also grants 200 hp, anything done with this? 4) There's a little stat called gold efficiency, what's up with that? 5) Has the CDR been taken into account? 6) Base AD? Which carries have we been testing?[/quote]

[quote=EvilDice][quote=astrolia] [quote=Warlemming] Because it's really brutil, obviously :> The AD Carry (singular) that BC synergies especially well on is Corki, due to his E. [/quote] Polse already commented about why this statement is incorrect, but in the future could you please actually play AD carries before you make statements like this? A lot of your comments, like the one about Shiv stacking in 7-8 seconds, suggests you only theory/math craft and rarely actually play the game or even try out the items being discussed. What's more is that this calculation doesn't factor in [b]environmental factors[/b] like how you can buy pieces of [[The Brutalizer]] separately (e.g. you start with a [[Long Sword]], get first blood, go back to town low on HP, and buy another [[Long Sword]]), how it has a lower cost than [[BF Sword]]. You also actually left out your math, so none of us have any idea what you're even doing. [/quote] +rep for this. theory/math crafting is only half the battle in league. what may look good in numbers is actually impractical for the game a lot of times.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]here's my math on AA, all numbers are rounded to no decimal places: [[The Brutalizer]] vs [[B. F. Sword]] 23 Arpen Runes/Masteries on Draven @ lvl 6 Damage vs 30 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 92 [[B. F. Sword]] = 96 Damage vs 60 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 72 [[B. F. Sword]] = 82 18 AD Rune/Mastery Page Draven @ lvl 6 Damage vs 30 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 92 [[B. F. Sword]] = 100 Damage vs 60 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 73 [[B. F. Sword]] = 81 23 Arpen Draven @ lvl 9 Damage vs 60 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 81 [[B. F. Sword]] = 90 Damage vs 120 Armor Target [[The Brutalizer]] = 55 [[B. F. Sword]] = 62 there shouldn't be a whole lot of change between ADC's since their stats are quite similar (generally within a point or two) and I'm not factoring in skills. i'd calculate the rest but i'm to tired to give a shit. maybe later.[/quote]

[quote=Warlemming][quote=GrandmasterD] Questions: 1) Why are there no other rune pages included? Brutalizer (note the correct spelling) is stronger on carries who use full armour penetration in their runes. [[Draven]] is a great example. 2) Were skills included? [[Draven]] is again an example of an ADC who has fairly low scalings but still does all physical damage, thus benefitting a lot from arp. 3) Cleaver also grants 200 hp, anything done with this? 4) There's a little stat called gold efficiency, what's up with that? 5) Has the CDR been taken into account? 6) Base AD? Which carries have we been testing? [/quote] 1: I mentioned that more Arpen actually still favours BF Sword (Thanks Nighthawk) 2: I'll admit, Draven's passive is a great way to stack BC. However, Draven's Q and W both being increases to his autoattack DPS by % amounts means that pure AD is still better. His E has pathetic scaling, so BC is better here, and both items are decent on his Ult. 3: BT gives 10-18% Lifesteal, but I didn't include that either. Survivabililty woo. 4: Bloodthirster efficiency: 3k gold gets you 3360-4720g based on stacks. Black Cleaver: 2982g value + the passive, so it depends on if you think that Black Cleavers passive is worth 2000g :| 5: The problem with CDR is that it assumes A: That you've already used abilities and are measuring the remaining time to go, and B: That you'll use them straight away. AD Carries are not gonna end up with more than 10%CDR with a BC, unless they run the 4%CDR mastery over 4% attackspeed, or build a Zephyr (Which isn't unreasonable). The other thing is a large number of AD Carries have abilities that gain nothing out of CDR (Draven has 2, since his Q is maintained by catching, and sure, you'll get another Q a second faster, but it still diminishes the CDR value, and his W resets with each Q) 6: I used Caitlyn for my base and scaling AD, which is a good middle ground, sitting between most AD champs who only differ by about 1 Base and 0.5 scaling at most.[/quote]

[quote=RuminatingWin][quote=Embracing] No one rushes this wat O_o The long-sword + 2 pots start is meant to build into vamp scepter BC is good on certain ADCS tho, esp MF with her ult [/quote] When s3 came out [b]soo[/b] many people were rushing Brutalizer. I see less people doing it now but his case is still valid. People want the armor pen cause they just automatically think armor pen is better than flat damage, especially since the whole armor pen rune trend that was so popular during s2.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Warlemming] [quote=GrandmasterD] Questions: 1) Why are there no other rune pages included? Brutalizer (note the correct spelling) is stronger on carries who use full armour penetration in their runes. [[Draven]] is a great example. 2) Were skills included? [[Draven]] is again an example of an ADC who has fairly low scalings but still does all physical damage, thus benefitting a lot from arp. 3) Cleaver also grants 200 hp, anything done with this? 4) There's a little stat called gold efficiency, what's up with that? 5) Has the CDR been taken into account? 6) Base AD? Which carries have we been testing? [/quote] 1: I mentioned that more Arpen actually still favours BF Sword (Thanks Nighthawk) 2: I'll admit, Draven's passive is a great way to stack BC. However, Draven's Q and W both being increases to his autoattack DPS by % amounts means that pure AD is still better. His E has pathetic scaling, so BC is better here, and both items are decent on his Ult. 3: BT gives 10-18% Lifesteal, but I didn't include that either. Survivabililty woo. 4: Bloodthirster efficiency: 3k gold gets you 3360-4720g based on stacks. Black Cleaver: 2982g value + the passive, so it depends on if you think that Black Cleavers passive is worth 2000g :| 5: The problem with CDR is that it assumes A: That you've already used abilities and are measuring the remaining time to go, and B: That you'll use them straight away. AD Carries are not gonna end up with more than 10%CDR with a BC, unless they run the 4%CDR mastery over 4% attackspeed, or build a Zephyr (Which isn't unreasonable). The other thing is a large number of AD Carries have abilities that gain nothing out of CDR (Draven has 2, since his Q is maintained by catching, and sure, you'll get another Q a second faster, but it still diminishes the CDR value, and his W resets with each Q) 6: I used Caitlyn for my base and scaling AD, which is a good middle ground, sitting between most AD champs who only differ by about 1 Base and 0.5 scaling at most. [/quote] Technically, [[Draven]]'s Q has a scaling of 0.45%-0.85% (depending on rank) which is an incredibly low scaling. Also, if you count [[Wicked Blades]], [[The Brutalizer]] beats BF in damage output on [[Draven]].[/quote]

[quote=koksei]You buy a brutaliser when ahead - usually means you got an early kill or just way more cs and pressure due to zoning. Since you usually/often start longswprd it's just 937 which is really cheap and just snowballs Hard as hell[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]I've been watching OGN Winter and the only time I've seen any AD carry rush Brutalizer is when a team is playing [[Miss Fortune]], in which case they do it almost 100% of the time. No team has played Draven so far in the quarterfinals, and the only reason why MF is so popular is because of a very powerful bug involving her [[Bullet Time]] that immediately stacks [[The Black Cleaver]] up to four stacks on the first hit. Even without the bug, you're applying the full AoE shred within at most one second, and with the huge surge in popularity of AD champions mid like [[Jarvan IV]], [[Jayce]], [[Kha'Zix]], combined with the Koreans' newfound interest in [[Zed]], Miss Fortune is now more of a mid/late-game utility AD instead of all-out early game aggression.[/quote]