Brutilizer - Why are AD Carries rushing this?

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]she's just offended that you called her friend out. neither of you were very polite, to be fair... But, regardless of that... [quote=Warlemming] Apparently you can't do maths [/quote] was kind of the start of it in this case. on topic, I agree with what has been said several times already in this thread, math is only PART of playing this game. You can do plenty of math and still be wrong part of the time.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]^ That. I don't have much to add here and I can't really be bothered with all this maths over something that should be pretty obvious, but I would like to point out that GMD is actually studying for a degree in the subject so he should know what he's talking about. Also he's right that those armour values are way too low, most AD carries [i]begin[/i] the game with around 28 armour (+5 if they use defensive masteries) making the average level 5 armour ~42.[/quote]

[quote=Warlemming][quote=GrandmasterD] No I'm a fucking retard indeed. I hope you can look at pictures better than typing on your calculator: [img=http://i.imgur.com/aSAqW.png] [color=#5555BB]Brutalizer[/color] [color=#BB0000]B.F. Sword[/color] Damage of Draven's [[Spinning Axe]] at level 9 (rank 5) including [[Wicked Blades]]. The gap widens for very low armour values, yes but not for decent armour values your opponents will be having at that point in the game. Try to understand game mechanics rather than picking numbers which support your theory. [/quote] Firstly, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have implied you're an idiot, I was just making a sarcastic quip at your comment of being able to do maths. Secondly, I don't know how you generated a graph that does not curve, since increasing armour will reduce DPS by smaller and smaller amounts. Not only that, but your graph implies that you have 34Arpen with the 0.92Mastery. Since I'm assuming you're runnning 10(Brut)+5(Mastery)+18(Runes) to get 33 (Close enough), and you're using level 9 Draven with Lvl 5 Spinning Axe: Brut: 112AD (46.5+3.5*9+9 Mastery+25), 33 +8% Arpen BF Sword: 127AD, 23 +8% Arpen [[Wicked Blades]]: 66 Damage On-hit: Brut: (112*1.85+66) = 273 Before Resistances BF: (127*1.85+66) = 301 BR At 30AR: Brut: 273 (Reduced below 0 AR) BF: 301 / (1+(30*0.92-23)/100) = 288 At 36AR (Brutalizer just barely pierces all armour) Brut: 273 BF: 301 / (1+(36*0.92-23)/100) = 273 At 40AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(40*0.92-33)/100) = 263 BF: 301 / (1+(40*0.92-23)/100) = 264.5 At 50AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(50*0.92-33)/100) = 242 BF: 301 / (1+(50*0.92-23)/100) = 245 At 60AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(60*0.92-33)/100) = 223 BF: 301 / (1+(60*0.92-23)/100) = 228 Thirdly, I have not once chosen values that support my theory. Nowhere. I've actually chosen ones that support YOUR theory. By using a value of armour that just borders the point that an Arpen item reduces armour to 0, I'm seeing that arpen build at its STRONGEST (See above, and how the only point where they match DPS is when Brutalizer is at perfect penetration). The problem is that as armour then increases further, the rate that the AD build drops has already slowed down, while the effect on DPS for the Arpen build is now at its greatest.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Warlemming] [quote=GrandmasterD] No I'm a fucking retard indeed. I hope you can look at pictures better than typing on your calculator: [img=http://i.imgur.com/aSAqW.png] [color=#5555BB]Brutalizer[/color] [color=#BB0000]B.F. Sword[/color] Damage of Draven's [[Spinning Axe]] at level 9 (rank 5) including [[Wicked Blades]]. The gap widens for very low armour values, yes but not for decent armour values your opponents will be having at that point in the game. Try to understand game mechanics rather than picking numbers which support your theory. [/quote] Firstly, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have implied you're an idiot, I was just making a sarcastic quip at your comment of being able to do maths. Secondly, I don't know how you generated a graph that does not curve, since increasing armour will reduce DPS by smaller and smaller amounts. Not only that, but your graph implies that you have 34Arpen with the 0.92Mastery. Since I'm assuming you're runnning 10(Brut)+5(Mastery)+18(Runes) to get 33 (Close enough), and you're using level 9 Draven with Lvl 5 Spinning Axe: Brut: 112AD (46.5+3.5*9+9 Mastery+25), 33 +8% Arpen BF Sword: 127AD, 23 +8% Arpen [[Wicked Blades]]: 66 Damage On-hit: Brut: (112*1.85+66) = 273 Before Resistances BF: (127*1.85+66) = 301 BR At 30AR: Brut: 273 (Reduced below 0 AR) BF: 301 / (1+(30*0.92-23)/100) = 288 At 36AR (Brutilizer just barely pierces all armour) Brut: 273 BF: 301 / (1+(36*0.92-23)/100) = 273 At 40AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(40*0.92-33)/100) = 263 BF: 301 / (1+(40*0.92-23)/100) = 264.5 At 50AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(50*0.92-33)/100) = 242 BF: 301 / (1+(50*0.92-23)/100) = 245 At 60AR: Brut: 273 / (1+(60*0.92-33)/100) = 223 BF: 301 / (1+(60*0.92-23)/100) = 228 Thirdly, I have not once chosen values that support my theory. Nowhere. I've actually chosen ones that support YOUR theory. By using a value of armour that just borders the point that an Arpen item reduces armour to 0, I'm seeing that arpen build at its STRONGEST (See above, and how the only point where they match DPS is when Brutilizer is at perfect penetration). The problem is that as armour then increases further, the rate that the AD build drops has already slowed down, while the effect on DPS for the Arpen build is now at its greatest. [/quote] It does curve, the curvature is just low at those specific values (30-50). Used that very setup indeed. Don't know exact numbers on AD as I've my formulae in Mathematica do that for me. I can send you a .pdf file with the stuff I did in case you are interested. (purely mathematical interest as there isn't a major impact in game going on here as the differences in damage are about 10 at worst)[/quote]

[quote=Warlemming][quote=GrandmasterD] It does curve, the curvature is just low at those specific values (30-50). Used that very setup indeed. Don't know exact numbers on AD as I've my formulae in Mathematica do that for me. I can send you a .pdf file with the stuff I did in case you are interested. (purely mathematical interest as there isn't a major impact in game going on here as the differences in damage are about 10 at worst) [/quote] Could you please, I'm genuinely curious how that graph came to be. Also, yeah you're right, there is a curve, it is just so minor I can't see it.[/quote]

[quote=CasterMaster]I think [[the black cleaver]] will be immensely dangerous on [[corki]]'s [[gatling gun]]. An area of massive armor reduction could possibly be the most painful thing a team fight needs. The only real reason to rush a [[brutalizer]] is because it builds into [[the black cleaver]]. Since the movement speed buff to all champions, you no longer needed to start [[boots of speed]] as your first item now. People take in regard with [[long sword]] and 2x [[health potion]]s. This can really only build into either [[vampiric scepter]] or [[brutalizer]]. I believe that's why its becoming very popular not only for AD carries, but also for top laners as well.[/quote]

[quote=Xeronn][Quote=GrandmasterD] there isn't a major impact in game going on here as the differences in damage are about 10 at worst [/Quote] [Embed=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRj-2KBfv_0] :D[/quote]

[quote=CasterMaster][quote=Xeronn] [Quote=GrandmasterD] there isn't a major impact in game going on here as the differences in damage are about 10 at worst [/Quote] [Embed=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRj-2KBfv_0] :D [/quote] Because every point of damage matters <3[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=The_Nameless_Bard] she's just offended that you called her friend out. on topic, I agree with what has been said several times already in this thread, math is only PART of playing this game. You can do plenty of math and still be wrong part of the time. I was mainly offended due to the fact that everyone was quick to think War was wrong, except Night, who also ran the math, which I appreciated. [/quote] But he wasn't wrong. Nick's graph and values were wrong all along. [quote=luther3000]I don't have much to add here and I can't really be bothered with all this maths over something that should be pretty obvious, but I would like to point out that GMD is actually studying for a degree in the subject so he should know what he's talking about.[/quote] And yet his math was wrong, Michael found the coding error within Nick's math and fixed it. So what are you saying is "pretty obvious", seeing as Warlemming was actually right all along?[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]why is this even a discussion lol they're 2 different items rushed in different situations, we really don't need any math[/quote]