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Efficiency of void staff

Creator: europeanorigin
October 27, 2012 10:45am
10 posts page 1 of 1 Forums » Theory Crafting & Ideation » Efficiency of void staff
When is void staff the most efficient on an enemy ?
from 00 to 40 magic resist
from 40 to 120 magic resist
from 120 to 200 magic resist
from 200 to 280 magic resist
from 280 to 360 magic resist
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by europeanorigin » October 27, 2012 10:45am | Report
Hello everyone !

I have made some calculations about void staff and found some interesting results.
Before sharing them, I'd like to make a quick poll to see if people already know this, or if it would actually be useful to people.

Hint : it's not between 0 and 40 ^^.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Pheyniex » October 28, 2012 12:10pm | Report
silli vote of mine... :P


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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by europeanorigin » October 29, 2012 3:11am | Report
Thank you all for voting !
I'll wait until 20 votes are reached and I'll release my discovery ^^ (currently 13)

Thanks again for the attention you've provided to this post.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by europeanorigin » October 29, 2012 2:00pm | Report
Alright! I'm posting my findings.

First of all, I'll do a small refresher on magic penetration and on how it works. Check the spoiler for it

Damage calculation


Ok, so from now, I suppose you know everything about the way damage is calculated in League of Legends.

In terms of damage, what is important is the amount of damage you actually deal to the enemy, what I called "true damage" in the spoiler before.

Now what about void staff, when does it increase your "true damage" the most ?
A quick reflexion tells you its not at low level of magic resist (0 magic resist * 0.6 = 0 magic resist).
On the other hand, at high level of magic resist, the amount of magic resist that is taken away increase more and more:
  • 0 MR -> 0 MR taken
  • 100 MR -> 40 MR taken
  • 200 MR -> 80 MR taken
  • 300 MR -> 120 MR taken
  • etc.

So it is tempting to say that void staff is stronger and stronger against high MR target... WRONG !
The more enemy has magic resist, the more you take away, but an opponent with "very high magic resist" will only fall to the status of "high magic resist" hero, which means that he will take less damage from your spell anyway. For instance, if when he had 300 MR, your spell dealt him 20% of his life (which meant your spell would have dealt 80% of his life if he had no MR) then when he is brought down to 180 MR, your spell will now deal him 28%, so 10% increase in "true damage".

So NO, void staff is not most efficient at high level of MR, nor at low level of MR. There is a sweet spot inbetween!

And here is a graph that clearly shows it (for both void staff and void staff + arcane knowledge)



Now here is the formula calculating the ENEMY MAGIC RESIST PROVIDING MAXIMUM EFFICIENCY FOR A GIVEN PERCENT MAGIC PENETRATION :
_______________100
"magic resist" = _____________
_______________SQR(1-PMP)

where PMP is the amount of magic penetration.

So basically that means that the amount of magic resist for which Void Staff + Arcane Knowledge magic penetration is maximized is 136,08 MR.

But that's without taking into account flat magic penetration. So if you take the Sorcerer's Shoes and Greater Mark of Magic Penetration into account the true sweet spot is :

164.6 MR


That's all folks !
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Xeronn » October 29, 2012 2:13pm | Report
Cool..

This is applied to Last Whisper as well I'm guessing.

My only question is how will it help us?

I mean, doing the math is fun n' all, but I'm just wondering.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by europeanorigin » October 29, 2012 2:39pm | Report
Of course it can be applied to LW.

It can help you in determining if you need armor/magic penetration items.
What is the AR/MR of your main target ? what is the mean AR/MR of the enemy team ?
In general, what are AR/MR values of my enemies throughout the games ?

If you can answer these questions, then by combining it with these results, you will be able to determine the correct amount of AR/MR penetration that you require from runes/masteries/items.

This implies a better item setup, more efficient rune picks, etc. in order to get the best out of EVERYTHING you can.

So yeah doin' math is fun n' all, but I also believe that you can outperform your opponent with it, even if you are slightly less talented than him.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by lifebaka » October 29, 2012 2:55pm | Report
I'm afraid that I'm going to have to remain skeptical here. While it's certainly true that larger amounts of MR reduce the effectiveness of %MPen, in terms of the amount of true damage provided, you're not modeling the AP provided by a Void Staff. Or the rest of the items that the champion has built. These things really matter. To take an example, let's suppose you're targetting an enemy with 400 MR and currently have 100 AP (this hypothetical does not represent a realistic scenario). It's very likely that building a Deathcap will be a larger damage increase than building a Void Staff, because the champion doesn't do enough damage yet for the % increase from Void Staff to be very useful. Change those numbers to 400 MR and around 600 AP (difficult to achieve without already having a Deathcap), and the Void Staff is probably a better pick in order use its multiplicative effect on an already-larger damage pool.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Darcurse » October 29, 2012 3:05pm | Report
... Nice and fun but....

  • Void Staff becomes better than flat MR penetration the moment the %-reduction on the enemy's MR is higher than the flat one. Simple as that, no greater math required.

  • Everyone who can think logically realizes that the nullified dmg reduce becomes less if the enemy stacks more and more resistance, because the more Arm/MR you stack the less dmg is reduced with every point of resistance.

  • The info that Void/LW falls off at some point is totally irrelevant, simply because at this point flat reduction isn't even worth trying anymore and %-reduction is still more efficient than plainly stacking AD/AP.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Xeronn » October 29, 2012 3:43pm | Report
lifebaka wrote:

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to remain skeptical here.


I was skeptical at first, but now I'm Platinum ranked ;D
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by europeanorigin » October 29, 2012 4:44pm | Report
@lifebaka : I apologize for not making it clear in the post: I worked only on the maximum efficiency of magic penetration. If I did that it is not because I disregard AP vs magic penetration!

No, it is because the other items will bring in AP, which will result in some damage that you can calculate by reading the spell description (like 250 + (350) magic damage or something for instance). Now the thing is this does not matter in order to see for which quantity of magic resist the void staff increases most the damage output.

However, I agree that if you want to measure the efficiency of the item OVERALL (increase of the item with regards to the build), there are plenty of things that are missing (like the build :p). But this is far too complicated, to be done in a generalized way. You can only simulate data for some specific spell, with a specific rune build and a specific item build. And then you'd have to find the combination of all these that would max the damage output of the void staff... Not easily feasible.



@Darcurse :

Quoted:
Void Staff becomes better than flat MR penetration the moment the %-reduction on the enemy's MR is higher than the flat one. Simple as that, no greater math required.


I totally agree with you on this : simple math. But that means finding what is best between void staff and SOMETHING ELSE. Here, the idea was to find the MR that made void staff the most efficient by itself! This way you can consider building a set of runes so that when your opponent reaches late-game, your opponents MR falls inbetween close bounds of it, which would increase the overall damage/gold ratio of the item. This implies considering different sets of runes and finding which one suits it best. I believe the possibility to adapt your build to your enemy to be particularly suited for ranked games, but I may be wrong.

It also means that Abyssal Mask can work very well with Void Staff in some very particular cases, like against a mid galio (if your work is to actually clean the galio)

Same for the AD carry. If you plan to take LW, is brutalizer still viable ? Depends on the target.

I believe it is abit more complicated that what most people think, and gaining even 2% true damage is extremely strong.


Quoted:
Everyone who can think logically realizes that the nullified dmg reduce becomes less if the enemy stacks more and more resistance, because the more Arm/MR you stack the less dmg is reduced with every point of resistance.


Once again, I can only agree about that, a quick explanation "with the hands" and you are convinced of it. But my objective was to see where this optimum was exactly.



Quoted:
The info that Void/LW falls off at some point is totally irrelevant, simply because at this point flat reduction isn't even worth trying anymore and %-reduction is still more efficient than plainly stacking AD/AP.


Interestingly, my results seems to suggest the opposite. You only have one % PENETRATION item (LW), which does not stack. So now imagine you took your LW because they were starting to stack some Armor. And then they do it again. Should you go for flat armor penetration ? YES, and no, it's bit more complicated actually. But the idea is that stacking flat armor penetration after percent armor penetration is something that can be considered in some cases. (to move the true damage percentage back to its peak)


So to sum up : This won't change your life in general, but if you try building accordingly, it could end up in a stronger damage output. Then again, nothing revolutionary, yet interesting. The thing you guys do not consider is the fact that IT IS NOT efficiency of void staff WITH REGARDS TO SOME ITEM. It is about void staff solely.
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