against darius you should only use your ult for his ult

I think it's close, and matchup dependent, saying whether Kayle is better top or mid is super dependent on current meta of who's popular where and teamcomp. It's a really dumb distinction to draw imo. Just say "it depends" and "both spots are viable". They are used both mid and top lane anyway and it's not like it's a very different build.

I use Hybrid Pen marks very rarely but like 95%+ of the time I use AS marks so I feel they are close to mandatory. AD marks help with last hitting but I think if you AD marks make scaling better than Hybrid Pen then you're doing something wrong; the difference won't really matter to Kayle. I think the only key is AS is better if you plan on making early engages. Hybrid Pen if you're playing passive and mostly relying on small bursts and later game engages (after you get nashor's). Like I said not engaging early with Kayle is wasting Kayle's strength. It's not often that you go into a matchup expecting not to be able to auto your enemy as Kayle.

Did your maths calculate when you can't AA the enemy and can only use Q? Or the fact that AD is better for last hitting, which then doubles up to serve as scaling for E? And then as alternatives you suggest ArmPen Marks if you can't get anything else?

They're not mandatory by any means just because they have the 'best DPS', considering that Kayle has a 100% AP scaling nuke.

Also, Kayle top is actually easier than Kayle mid, because most top laners are melee bruisers/tanks. Range gives Kayle a HUGE advantage in lane matchups. The immediate downside is that you lose the position of a dedicated tank which later on in teamfights may be much much more important.

This is really all dependent on who you lane against. If you lane against someone like riven, you better damn well be using E so that you dont get wrecked. ON the other hand, if you are playing against a yi, you probably wont need to farm with E. It is very dependent on who you lane against and I think we can all agree upon that.

Also I don't think you should farm with E. You should farm without E as much as possible, and only turn it on when they come in to harass; that guarantees you get to ward them off. You only turn E on to farm if you're losing trades, which happens. Kayle with ASmarks AP quints (which, as you mentioned, is flat out better than other combinations), is very very good at trades so she can actually walk right up to minions to hit them, and trade back any harass with Q + autos.

I don't get your logic for getting voidstaff; mpen doesn't work better with more mpen. If anything, the fact that Kayle already has mpen means that you are not hard countered by magic resist so you should get Deathcap instead of Voidstaff. If you're make a bold claim that voidstaff is better than deathcap, then you should use some maths to back it up. Fact of the matter is Deathcap is better, or in fact Sheen > Deathcap > LB is better, since LB doesn't become super strong until you have more AP, and sheen's base damage is fairly strong already and gives you enough burst (NLR gives same AP as an entire LB, so going Sheen > Deathcap > LB actually gives you more AP).

Re: Diggendawg I play Kayle for Top, Mid, Jungle, and Support, and I can tell you that Kayle does well in both lanes but I prefer her in Middle. She does NOT lose to a lot of those lanes you mentioned; you're being extremely biased because in your guide you said Kayle does well vs Fizz when obviously she does not (relatively speaking). Kayle performs alright vs strong bullies like Renek and Jax (I'd say about par) she hard counters singed, crushes guys like malphite, does well vs riven, and just stomps on a lot of ap picks. Fact is Kayle can be far better top than mid vs certain matchups, and in fact can take teleport because of her lane presence, which makes her a great pick. Finally, innately Kayle is HYBRID and also has built in penetration, so she's very hard to itemize vs. EMBRACE that, and don't take dumb items like voidstaff and liandry's (except late game for voidstaff, but probably after GA).

Really I don't get those dumb logic about stacking penetration. Having lots of penetration doesn't make it stronger. 20 mpen is exactly half as strong as 40 mpen, and if anything, you want a balanced amount of mpen so stacking mresist is not strong, because generally speaking LB Deathcap does way more damage than Voidstaff, void staff is only better if they have 150+ mresist vs Kayle, which simply isn't happening late game, and by then you have finished deathcap and can build voidstaff. It's pretty dumb in general to get voidstaff otherwise.

Rageblade is an IMPORTANT situational pick for top Kayle that you can't not mention. It's her best way of countering Jax/Riven/Renek.

Other important items to mention: Wit's End (early negatron), Glacial Shroud, Abyssal Scepter. Liandry's is OKAY but I basically never get it.

Too difficult to read this. So many mistakes with grammar or punctuation and walls of text in the most parts. Please run this through a spell checker.

I will just write one more reply here and we can pm later. It is not uncommon for the toplane to be a tank who can also wreck Kayle. Consider renekton. Renekton has a stun, lifesteal, and gains a massive amount of health when he Ults. He can be off-tank while still doing loads of damage to you. Consider Nasus - extremely tanky but one siphone strike and you are low on health. Garen is a pain as well, especially when he silences you, effectively ruining your chances of escaping with your R or W. Elise's stun really screws you over as well. Between Teemo's blind and his shrooms, you have one big order of harass up top.

While mid is easier to gank, there is an easy solution to this in my opinion. Constantly ward the same side of the lane. Stay close to this side while farming but not so close that if a gank would come from that side that you would be screwed. If the jungler is someone with massive cc/speed like volibear or lee, you will want to invest in actual wards. This is also better for kayle as she doesnt have an ability that can get that last hit that you missed like Karthus - Jinx - Ezreal, etc. Mid is the easiest lane to gank which means that your jungler should have no problem ganking you a few times.

There are a few champions who are a pain in the *** like morgana. Lets be honest - the hitbox on her stun is far too large, especially in comparison to Lux. If you rush boots on champions like morgana/lux you will be able to avoid those nasty stuns. It also means you have to be extremely aware of your side bushes because if she stuns you and you get ganked at the same time - you are dead if you dont have flash AND your ult. While this takes two people to kill you, it is a much better choice than being easily killed at level 2 when riven QQQs in and then stuns you again just to secure the kill with ignite. I have played near 100 games with Kayle. I used to play top but got so frustrated because of all of the Nasus/riven/renekton/elise picks. I started playing mid and had 10x the kills and carries.

This is just my opinion from MY perspective. Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion and everyone has his/her own experiences. I only hope to offer insight, not to bully you into changing your opinions!

I'll pm you tomorrow, lets have a talk there.
i have considered ( and i do tend to play Kayle mid once in a while ) But i think shes a waaay stronger pick in top lane, due to her potential to bully most bruisers out of lane. Besides, as i said in my guide Kayle is very fragile and ganks can hurt her very badly, and mid lane is the easiest lane in game to gank.

Top lane, has fewer ways to gank, which makes it a lot safer. Also what Drakon136 wrote "Kayle mid is pretty bad. You're generally against a ranged champion, so you have to farm with E unless you want to get harrassed a lot, which pushes the lane a lot. In top, you don't have to do this usually." i kinda agree with this. not that Kayle Mid is bad, but the fact that you're most likely to face a rannged champ, which is harder to fight against for kayle.

she can indeed do very well in mid, against champions such as Zed or Fizz (I'm having a very easy time fighting those champions as Kayle mid) but i've also tried match up's such as TF vs. Kayle, or Morgana vs. Kayle, and those can be a real pain for kayle.

Yes, i also wrote about Nasus in my Match up's. Nasus W Really hurts Kayle, But as for lane-phase, Kayle can really zone him out well. Atleast, thats my Experience from playing Top kayle vs. Nasus.

Kayle mid is 10x easier than Kayle top. I can name maybe 2 hard matchups for Kayle mid and they would be leblanc and syndra. If riven mids - you are screwed without jungles help. The CD on your E is so small that you can farm with it. If you only last hit with it, you will not push lane as much however I personally like to push lane and here is why:

Pushing lane means more minions under their tower which means that they get less farm - its that simple. You have to be more careful about being ganked but if you have a decent sense of when and where to ward, you are fine.

Back to the main point. Yes, most champions who play mid are ranged, Kayle is too. The only time I farm without my E is when the other champion is out of lane.



When you play top, you better damn well be using your E because if you aren't, you will be the one who is getting harassed. Consider Darius - he pulls you because you are too close and you are down to 50% health once you get away. Consider Riven - she stuns you (twice) and beats the **** out of you because you were too close - you are dead. You pretty much have no chance of escaping this one. Consider Nasus - he withers you and siphon strikes you - you are down a large chunk of health and he is healed a good chunk (because you couldnt get away fast enough by using your W and Q to escape (because you were too close!)). Consider Jax - He hops on you, dealing a ton of damage, you try to flee, he stuns you and does more damage, you have around 25% health by the time you escape (because you were too close!!). Must I go on? If you aren't farming with your E, face it - you do not have enough brute force to hold off the other lane matchup champion.

When you farm with E - you do the exact opposite. You poke THEM when they get too close because you can. Consider my argument - I hope it is insightful.