21/3/7

@ Tinaby

Math isnt my thing, but ty for understanding where I was going.

The reason I have Rally, is its great for that random fight and I need the extra dmg. The reason for this is, the AD I get from Rally means I hit harder. Which means I have more to leech with LS. And yeah... I hope you can see where that is going. The reason I didnt apply Rally to the scenerio, is it adds more as I level up. Here is why I use Rally.

@SpikeyDemon
His build is not "weak", it's really cheap and he tries to get the best use of a little monney with great synergies between his items. And he can argue for it, what proves it's based on a reflexion. I'd not say his build is weak because he will be quite strong quite fast, even if at the end he's less strong than an expensive build, but that's just normal : how could 9k gold beat 14k ?


@Chaotic
As i said, i don't say your build is weak, and i really like the fact you can defend it, it's really interesting and you're making good points, some i even didn't notice. I'm quite happy it has become a debate, that's the way everybody improves himself !

I do agree you have 1 more point in enrage and that's a big mistake he makes on his build : going AS first can be done only by maxing enrage first.
Concerning your maths, i'd not take the 15% reduce for leviathan, because you won't have it when you have only zerks/exec/Ghostblade[/atma]. And most of all, you're more likely not going to have it at all, unless your ennemies are dumb (the joy of snowball items ^^).
What i wanted to say for the 2 seconds stun is that you lose 2 sec of the ghostblade, and that could prevent you from extending the time.

For your maths, you assume you give 10 hits and he does so, but he has 120% AS (zerks + PD+malady) when you have 75% under Ghostblade. In any way, i don't think the best thing is comparing both builds in a 1v1 fight between yourselves but, as we both noticed in some point, against squishies or tanks.

I do agree you'll have more damage until he gets Last Whisper if he doesn't change the runes. The advantage of going PD/malady first is that they're composed of really cheap items you can easily buy in many times, as you can do for yours (though i still think i'd get a stark instead of malady). That makes his build not so hard at the beginning. Yours is stronger at the time you get Ghostblade and executionner (he may not have his malady at this time), but his is quite progressive too even if items seems really expensive. There should not be a time when he has a "gap" between 2 items before Blood or IE.

These are two way of playing, as you said, you don't go AS, you chose to quickly hit less frequently but harder, when he chose to start by hitting more but not that hard. I guess it depends on your playstyle.

Concerning your build, as you don't go AS, maybe rally could be changed for ignite ? Executionner + ignite should give you more time preventing your ennemy from healing and provide you quite the same amount of damage.

PS : i play wow :p

My buikd isnt built on AS, now is it? No. My build is built on the synergy betweem Atma's Impaler and Enrage. And you are right, Ghostblade and Executioner's are in alot of my phsyical dmg champs, because they work, and are less expensive. You want to spend 3200 on Bloodthirster, thats fine, but Ill spend about that much on 2 items that will get me great results. You want to spend 4080 on IE thats great. Ill get 2 more items and start building a third.

You look at stats and dont crunch the numbers. AS isnt what bothers me. Im gaining great amounts of life by farming with Enrage, and Atma's allows me to put that life to better use than making me live longer. I see enough of you bashing on me, but prove that my build is weak. Crunch some numbers, show me some charts, or better yet make a video. And play the game. Dont just play like **** to 'prove my weakness'. Untill you prove that each of my builds are weak, please dont flame me. If it aint broke dont fix it.

@ OP

How's it feel to have a build resulted in so much discussion?

As for the build, Ive commented, it just so happens that it became a debate. Im sorry that it got this way. I dont like hearing that my thoughts are 'weak' or 'ineffective'. Im not saying that Tinaby, is say those things, but Im feel that I must debate the build comparison.

I give the build +1. Its too expensive for me, though its late game potential is godly. I thought Id offer my build as a cheaper alternative, that still gets great results.

Please comment this build, and don't go off topic, instead of making it into a discussion thread.

Chaotic Bliss man you just don't know anything. Your Sion build is horrible all you do is want Exexcutioner's Call and Ghostblade for all of your builds because you didn't try anything else or whatever. And your build only has 25% attk speed and it is weak.....
EDIT
Talking to Chaotic Bliss and stop making dis a chat room just vote and leave a comment .........

Have you taken into account the 15% reduction from Leviathan? So his 300 after the reduction is only 255. That compared to the 270+ that Im doing, kinda gives me the edge here dont you think?



The thing here is he wont have that 65 AD untill late game. Ive got 3/5 Enrage by lvl 6 and he has 2. Thats what Im talking about here. Ive got 10 more dmg from Enrage, plus the 30 from Ghostblade. Yes he can attack faster than me, but with the 40dmg difference and my greater ArP, seeing as he has Last Whipser AFTER PD. So, this is how I see this playing out.

If you play WoW... He is attacking fast like a Rogue with 2 daggers. Im attacking slower, but Im doing greater dmg like a Warrior.

Now please dont bring specs and such into this. High AS with low dmg is more of a harassing thing. Slow AS and Higher dmg is better for commiting.

So, yes he hits me faster, but without LW and just Malady and PD, Im still slightly ahead in the dmg department. Why? He has to fight w/o his ArP item. Now should he get runes, than he has 20 less ArP. That means Im doing more dmg over the course of the fight.

His 20% Dodge chance, not 25%, means he dodges 1/5 attacks and that saves him a lil bit.



The thing about this is the stuns. Im not the only one stunned for 2 seconds. Now If I get the drop on him, or him on me than the fight will go to the stunner, dont you think? thats 2 seconds of dmg that cant be stopped. Now assuming that we stun together, my stun is one sec sooner than his. THAT makes a difference, yes? So within that 8 seconds of Ghostblade being active, Ill have another stun. That is a major factor in the fight. As for me being dead after that 8 seconds, you need to take into concideration how much Im gaining from the total dmg Im doing. That means calculation the dmg Im doing since he has -31 armor. I cant do that math due to the fact I dont know the formula for calculating dmg when negitive armor is in play. So the fact that Im dealing more dmg with his armor being -31, means, in theory, that Im gaining more health per swing in LS than he is, correct? Or it will be somewhat more balanced.



The thing here, is my 18% will heal more since Im dealing more dmg due to my ArP being higher than his. Again, he is gaining small amounts of life faster, and Im gaining larger amounts slower. If the 15% and 18% are close, but I gain 18% of the more dmg Im doing, over the 15% of the little dmg he is doing. You are using that 65 Enrage dmg as if we have both maxed it out. Thats cool lets to that. I have +30 dmg from Ghostblace. That will also give me more dmg. Lets do some more math. Lets not count the starting dmg. Just Enrage and items.

He gets 65 from Enrage, 20% dodge, and 30crit. Thats great combat stats. With his 15% LS he gains 9.75 LpS (life per swing) and if the fight lasts 8seconds, seeing as that is my expected lifespan, and he lands 10 hits, he leechs 97.5 life and deals 650 dmg.

Noe I get 65 Enrage, 30 from Ghostblade, and 30crit. Thats great stats for me. Now 18% of that total 95AD is 17.1. Now assuming I make 10 attacks, and with his 1/5 dodge rating,I land 8 of those Im doing 760 dmg amd leeching 136.8.

Now add armor into the mix. We both have 76. Im taking 43% less dmg, not counting Levianthan stacks. Out of that 650, I take 370.5. Now since he only has 27 due to my ArP runes and Ghostblade, Ill do more dmg due to the fact he has less armor. IDK the % 27armor reduces, but Im sure its not much. I cant say how much Ill do, due that unknown factor.

My point is until he get LW Im going to have the edge.

I agree with this part. Your build is really less expensive.


Here i disagree with you. Ghostblade + executioner will be crushed by PD + malady. You attack way slowier, he has 25% evade, and the DoT damage you mention are outpassed by far by malady (36 damage per hit after the 6th shot, not reduced by armor, it's even better than your 30 damage from Ghostblade). He has only 30 damage less than you (from Ghostblade) and nearly the same leach (15 vs 18). The 65 damage from enrage should be enough there. Youmu+Exec = 30% crit = PD. Same crit though.


Even with your actives you have far less AS than him, and as you said Atma puts you to about 270 AD, you still miss 30 to reach his. But your point about executionner is right, he will have trouble for healing during 6 seconds. But under ults, he has 100% + 25% + 15 % = 140% leach, divided by 2 it's still 70%, can't really call this a trouble. Accordind you miss on hit on 4 because of his 25% evade, you have 75% from a full hit. And your armor is reduced by 42 due to LW, quite the same than your 49 ArP. So at last he does quite the same damage and leach but faster. Sure you have more life, that should balance it, but if the fight goes after 8 seconds, you're dead. And you lose 2 seconds with the stun.


I did see your whole build and i agree some items work fine together, such as leviathan and Atma (this last one also suits well with enrage's passive). But Sion doesn't need damage early game thanks to his enrage damage. It can be great to do damage, but you can't blame someone for getting 2 AS items when the champ has 65 free damage per hit (and even more with malady).


You're right on this point. But this is considering both your armors. On a tank he will do more or less the same damage, on a squishy you'll do more thanks to cleaver (according Malady's damage don't surpass the bonus from arp, 36 AD is quite high when it comes to auto attack). Still, this is about "damage reduction", and he has more "base" AD and more AS.

@ Tinaby

You fail to look at my build in whole. The life that I have increases my dmg output. Atma's Impaler will greatly increse my dmg. The reason I say LW is a waste, is the dmg on it isnt worth the gold. Yes the best ArP is great to have, but Im not spending the money for just 10dmg. Its a waste in the early game IMO.

The thing you fail to see about the build comparison is Cost. His build gets too expensive in IR and Bloodthirster. I can have my build underway and effective long before he can. Unless he rushes to build IE or Bloodthirster, my Ghostblade will beat him out early game. My early game items, Ghostblade, Greaves, Executioner's all give me an advantage. This is why.

I have a greater dmg output with Ghostblade, than he does with his PH. He may hit faster, but I hit harder with the combined ArP from runes and Ghostblade itself. If I activate GhostBlade Ill hit just as fast. With more hits, Im dealing my ArP dmg faster. Now add Executioner's and Malady. He attacks faster, but have more LS. I will also be criting more. Executioner's Passive will also DoT him and is refreshed with each hit I land. A small DoT, but thats dmg I dont have to deal. If I activate EC, his LS will be less effective. He doesnt have the dmg output I do, so his LS will be less. If I add the active it will heal him even less. So at that point he is just pinging at me. Again his low dmg output wont be as effective. Adding Ults into the mix, He might hit faster, but Im still doing more dmg and gaining more life.

Lets more into late game. Assuming he has his full build and I have mine. Add the 600 from the stacks on Leviathan I am doing a total of 270+dmg counting Atma's. That of course isnt counting the extra life gain from Enrage. Than add Black Cleaver and its Armor debuff, Ive wrecked his armor, and Im dealing greater dmg because of it. We can add in Ults. He will have massive AS, and great LS, but so will I. Now adding actives, I get the upper hand. I have that great AS to compliment my dmg output. Executioner's Active will cause him to gain less life, So Ill be doing better in that department too.

It pains me to see that you didnt take my whole build into concideration. Yes he is building AS, but he isnt getting the dmg soon enough to make that AS deadly. Ill gladly swing slower if it means I hit harder. Sion is wielding a 2handed axe, and should hit like a Mack truck. AS with low dmg is never effective. AS with low dmg and LS isnt much better. Im sry but I see myself with the kill here. Yes, his items are more powerful, but they dont work as well together as mine do.

You also mentioned ArP. He is close. I have 121 armor. Stark's drops that to 101. Next apply his ArP which comes to 35, I have 66. LW 40% reduction give me 39. Thats impressive. Now its my turn. He has 78. I start with 49 ArP. That alone drops him to 29. Now adding the full stacks of Black Cleaver debuff of 60, he goes down to -31. Thats a total of 109 ArP. He isnt just losing armor, he's taking more dmg from going into the negitives.

@ OP

I think Ive got the upper hand when it comes to CDs. That 15% i get from Ghostblade, and what I get from Masteries, will mean I will have more up time for Cannibalism. The Gaze/Cannibalism hotkey is a given, so Ive got it too. I wont be the only one focused my friend. You will be pinged just as hard as I will. I think our fight would come down to Stun and Caress useage. Id like to test these two builds head to head.

You mentioned a 'Low' CD on Cannibalism. I crunched the numbers on both our builds, and my CD for Cannibalism is 71, and yours is 81. Thats a 10sec difference, and thats a big difference. I also did it for Gaze, seeing as it will make or break the fight. My Gaze comes down to 6.32 secs and your is 7.28 secs. There is a .96 difference, but its enough to change the flow of a fight. If we stun together, the next stun will make or break the game. I dont count Caress into the CDR because its roughly the same. This would be a close fight if both builds were complete

The reason for picking Malady as a second item, is since this is an easy way to take out minions without having to run back to the base too often, as for the start it is not needed since you will easily keep yourself long enough alive with healing potions. Other than that, Phantom Dancer as a starter I personally believe is a great choice, as both the speed increase and crit chance is extremely good when going for the 10% increase in the offense tree. And for your comment, Bliss, your point about lifesteal may be a good choice for anyone but Sion, but the way I play Sion I would not go for the high Lifesteal as it is not needed with a pretty "Low" cooldown on Cannib. And I will say that Ghostblade is useful, as while being the main target, you won't have any time to click that, when having the hotkey of your Cannib and stun, and while the cooldown reduction might be useful there are other items I'd prefer rather than Ghostblade.
I'll consider trying out ArP Mark and stark.
Thanks for the constructive criticism, I'll give it a thought or two.

@Chaotic Bliss
Actually, if you want us to look at your build, stop giving them stupid names where we can't even see the name of the char. Almost considering the number of build you've made, one have something else to do than clicking all your builds to find the good one ;)
As i had some time and i saw a "Zombi" in the list, i looked at your build, and no offense, but it's not really good (big lack of AS when ult and ghostblade are on CD)

Then, LastWhisper is never a waste on a physical champ if ennemies start to stack armor. Executioner's call has NOTHING to do with Malady. Their only common point is leach life, and those items don't have the same purpose in any way. Here he wants AS, and Exec don't give any.

Your build has 25% AS + Ghostblade (50% every minute for 8 sec). here he has 175%. Sure it's twice the AS, but in the other direction ;)

More life steal ? Sure he has more too. 15%+25% -> 40% while you only have Exec and it's 18%.

Arp ? That's the weak point of his build early game, and that's why i advice him to change his marks and to get a Stark (17 from runes + 25 from starks = 42 flat ArP). Anyway, LastWhisper grants a 40% ArP, and it's the best ArP item in game, far beyond Ghostblade or Stark on this point (on a tank, this often goes to 80 ArP).

I'll compare full builds for you :
- He has more AD, Crit Chance, Crit damage, MS, AS, life steal, dodge and ArP on tanks
- You have more Armor, life (leviathan), CDR, ArP on squishies

And if he does what i said (mark + stark) he almost have more ArP at all.

Claiming to be a DPS ? I guess he beats you everywhere end game on this point.

Personally, I cant say I care for this build. Malady and Last Whisper are wasted on Sion. There are so many better items than that. Personally I would change Malady to Executioner's Call. More Lifesteal, cheaper, and gives more crit. Last Whisper should be a Ghostblade. More Dmg, more crit chance, ArP, and up to 8 secs of burst dmg and movement speed. Ghostblade also stacks with Cannibalism. You cant get much better than that. Twice the AS, more LS, ArP so you deal more dmg and gain more from LS.

Look at my profile, and look at my Sion build.