Views: 20968 Armor penetration vs Flat attack damage runes
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I have always used Armor penetration while a lot of other people use flat attack damage runes.
I have actually no idea which one is better by statistics, so lets calculate!
Data lvl 1
Average amount of base AD for an AD carry at lvl 1 = 55
Amount of AD gain from masteries: 3 + 0,58/level = 3,58 AD at lvl 1
AD runes grant: 0,95 AD each mark and 2,25 each quint
Armor penetration runes grant: 1,28 ArP each mark and 2,56 ArP per quint
The minimum AD at the start will be 55 + 3,58 = 58,58 AD
Comparison lvl 1
Full flat AD
The one with full attack damage marks has the following amount of attack damage at the start:
58,58 + 0,95*9 + 2,25*3 = 73,88 = 74 attack damage.
Let's say the enemy has an average of 19 armor, 19 armor blocks 16% of the physical damage income.
Though, we have masteries, that also ignore 6 + 8% of the armor.
So 19 * (1-0,08) = 19 * 0,92 = 17,48
17,48 - 6 = 11,48
11,48 armor blocks 10% of the damage income
So each attack you will do 74 * 0,897 = 66,4 = 66 damage at lvl 1
Armor penetration
The amount of AD you will have is 58,58.
The ArP from your runes, will pretty much grant you 100% armor penetration, since:
1,28 * 9 + 2,56 * 3 = 19,2 ArP and the enemy has 19 armor.
However, we also have masteries that grant 6 + 8% penetration.
So we have the following from just masteries:
11,48 armor, just like in the previous chapter.
11,48 - 19,2 = -7,72
-7,72 armor actually increases the damage output by you.
The amount of bonus damage gain from -7,72 armor is 7,2%, which isn't bad,
So let us calculate the amount of damage each auto attack:
58,58 * 1,072 = 62,8 = 63 damage each auto attack
Conclusion lvl 1
Flat AD grants more early game power than Armor penetration.
Now let's look at lvl 18, while having full items.
Comparison lvl 18
Full flat AD
Your flat AD from runes and masteries remains the same.
For it is 0,95*9 + 2,25*3 = 15,3 AD
Now let's add the AD per level from the masteries and the champion aswell.
As champion I pick
Tristana, because she is one of the most basic ADC.
So now we have 15,3 + 46,5 + 3*18 + 0,58 * 18 = 126,24 AD
I am a good boy and I listen to the top guide of Mobafire, who recommends me to get:
Berserker's Greaves, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster and Mercurial Scimitar.
That grants a total bonus AD of:
270 AD (assuming that you have all stacks of the Bloodthirster)
270 + 126,24 = 396,24 Attack damage at lvl 18
The amount of armor penetration in flat numbers is 6 from the masteries, and thanks to Last Whisper, we now have 35% + 8% = 43% armor penetration.
Now, we are going to assume the impossible and say we face an another Tristana which exact the same runes, masteries and items.
The amount of armor she has is 15 + 3 per level, so that is 15 + 3*18 = 69 (LOLZ 69) armor.
The amount of armor that remains after penetration 69 * (1-0,43) = (69 * 0,57) -6 = 33,33 armor
33,33 armor blocks 25% of your physical damage.
So let's multiply:
396,24 * (1-0,25) = 396,24 * 0,75 = 297,2 damage each auto attack.
This excludes the chance that you have to make a critical strike, for the chances are the same with the ArP build, and the difference is minimal.
Armor penetration
We still have 19,2 ArP from runes and 6 + 8% from masteries.
The amount of AD we will have at lvl 18 with these runes =
396,24 - 15,3 = 380,94 attack damage.
We now, just like the last build, also have 35% armor penetration from the Last Whisper.
We are still up against a Tristana, which has 69 armor.
How much armor is left after penetration?
(69 * 0,57) - (6 + 19,2) = 14,13 armor remains
14,13 armor blocks 12,4% of the physical damage output.
380,94 * (1-0,124) = 380,94 * (0,876) = 333,7 damage output
Conclusion lvl 18
ArP grants a much bigger advantage than flat AD runes at lvl 18.
Overall Conclusion
The difference in damage output with auto attacks at lvl 1 is small, with flat AD having a bit more.
The difference in damage output with auto attacks at lvl 18 is a bit bigger, with ArP having more advantage.
However, the results of the ArP was calculated against an low armor ADC. Against tanks, it would make much less difference, making ArP and flat AD pretty much equal at late levels.
The more armor the enemy has, the less effective ArP is.
So keep focussing the low armor enemies with your ArP runes and you are good to go! :D
Good luck on the battlefield!
-Meiyjhe
I have actually no idea which one is better by statistics, so lets calculate!
Data lvl 1
Average amount of base AD for an AD carry at lvl 1 = 55
Amount of AD gain from masteries: 3 + 0,58/level = 3,58 AD at lvl 1
AD runes grant: 0,95 AD each mark and 2,25 each quint
Armor penetration runes grant: 1,28 ArP each mark and 2,56 ArP per quint
The minimum AD at the start will be 55 + 3,58 = 58,58 AD
Comparison lvl 1
Full flat AD
The one with full attack damage marks has the following amount of attack damage at the start:
58,58 + 0,95*9 + 2,25*3 = 73,88 = 74 attack damage.
Let's say the enemy has an average of 19 armor, 19 armor blocks 16% of the physical damage income.
Though, we have masteries, that also ignore 6 + 8% of the armor.
So 19 * (1-0,08) = 19 * 0,92 = 17,48
17,48 - 6 = 11,48
11,48 armor blocks 10% of the damage income
So each attack you will do 74 * 0,897 = 66,4 = 66 damage at lvl 1
Armor penetration
The amount of AD you will have is 58,58.
The ArP from your runes, will pretty much grant you 100% armor penetration, since:
1,28 * 9 + 2,56 * 3 = 19,2 ArP and the enemy has 19 armor.
However, we also have masteries that grant 6 + 8% penetration.
So we have the following from just masteries:
11,48 armor, just like in the previous chapter.
11,48 - 19,2 = -7,72
-7,72 armor actually increases the damage output by you.
The amount of bonus damage gain from -7,72 armor is 7,2%, which isn't bad,
So let us calculate the amount of damage each auto attack:
58,58 * 1,072 = 62,8 = 63 damage each auto attack
Conclusion lvl 1
Flat AD grants more early game power than Armor penetration.
Now let's look at lvl 18, while having full items.
Comparison lvl 18
Full flat AD
Your flat AD from runes and masteries remains the same.
For it is 0,95*9 + 2,25*3 = 15,3 AD
Now let's add the AD per level from the masteries and the champion aswell.
As champion I pick
Tristana, because she is one of the most basic ADC.So now we have 15,3 + 46,5 + 3*18 + 0,58 * 18 = 126,24 AD
I am a good boy and I listen to the top guide of Mobafire, who recommends me to get:
Berserker's Greaves, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, Bloodthirster and Mercurial Scimitar.That grants a total bonus AD of:
270 AD (assuming that you have all stacks of the
Bloodthirster)270 + 126,24 = 396,24 Attack damage at lvl 18
The amount of armor penetration in flat numbers is 6 from the masteries, and thanks to
Last Whisper, we now have 35% + 8% = 43% armor penetration.Now, we are going to assume the impossible and say we face an another
Tristana which exact the same runes, masteries and items.The amount of armor she has is 15 + 3 per level, so that is 15 + 3*18 = 69 (LOLZ 69) armor.
The amount of armor that remains after penetration 69 * (1-0,43) = (69 * 0,57) -6 = 33,33 armor
33,33 armor blocks 25% of your physical damage.
So let's multiply:
396,24 * (1-0,25) = 396,24 * 0,75 = 297,2 damage each auto attack.
This excludes the chance that you have to make a critical strike, for the chances are the same with the ArP build, and the difference is minimal.
Armor penetration
We still have 19,2 ArP from runes and 6 + 8% from masteries.
The amount of AD we will have at lvl 18 with these runes =
396,24 - 15,3 = 380,94 attack damage.
We now, just like the last build, also have 35% armor penetration from the
Last Whisper.We are still up against a
Tristana, which has 69 armor.How much armor is left after penetration?
(69 * 0,57) - (6 + 19,2) = 14,13 armor remains
14,13 armor blocks 12,4% of the physical damage output.
380,94 * (1-0,124) = 380,94 * (0,876) = 333,7 damage output
Conclusion lvl 18
ArP grants a much bigger advantage than flat AD runes at lvl 18.
Overall Conclusion
The difference in damage output with auto attacks at lvl 1 is small, with flat AD having a bit more.
The difference in damage output with auto attacks at lvl 18 is a bit bigger, with ArP having more advantage.
However, the results of the ArP was calculated against an low armor ADC. Against tanks, it would make much less difference, making ArP and flat AD pretty much equal at late levels.
The more armor the enemy has, the less effective ArP is.
So keep focussing the low armor enemies with your ArP runes and you are good to go! :D
Good luck on the battlefield!
-Meiyjhe
Guys, the truth is that the ad and arpen argument has been going on for so long no one will ever back down on their stand so there is really NO POINT trying to argue this. Just be happy with what you pick for your marks :)
WRONG... I used to be all about pen marks, but after I read this I now see that flat AD is better, and use those instead. Might be just the fact that I'm a math nerd and actualy tested the calculations along while reading, but your statement is wrong! :3
This.
It's pretty simple.
If you lack good AD ratios, or you're an AD Caster, ArPen usually is better the longer the game goes on. AD hurts more earlygame and makes you more bursty with AD scaling skills.
What they said.
There are all small mistakes everywhere in your post that make the final answers really wrong. The real answer is: Flat AD is by far better than Armor Pen early game because of significantly stronger autoattacks AND spell damage (unless you have no AD ratios on your spells lol). And Armor Pen has always been and will always be better for late game.
Since AD carries already rape everyone late game, what you want is something that will help you dominate your lane so you can carry the game. This is also known as get Flat AD Runes on every single AD carry you nooblord (joking lol)!
This.
It's pretty simple.
If you lack good AD ratios, or you're an AD Caster, ArPen usually is better the longer the game goes on. AD hurts more earlygame and makes you more bursty with AD scaling skills.
Berserker's Greaves, Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Last Whisper, The Bloodthirster and Mercurial Scimitar.
Good boy? i thought good banana
**closing browser, becuz **** math, that's why**
Sorry if I sounded angry or anything lol. I just do lots of maths about LoL and I twitch whenever I see someone doing sonething 'wrong' xP. Im like a LoL math Nazi if that's a thing.
I feel like more AD in lane is more useful than more damage late game for pretty much everysingle ADC but you can play like you want
Arpen is better against champs
AD is better against minions
I didn't know that
I have no idea where you got this information from, but still, I indeed made some assumptions.
The conclusion you used is pretty much the same as I used, my conclusion had maybe some grammatic mistakes that might have suggested something different than I meant.
I did mean that the flat AD will grant you more early game power, and the ArP more late game power.
All and all, the things you disliked about my calculations were merely details :P
I mostly made this calculation for myself, but I thought: Hey, why not share it with others? :P
Now I am sure that ArP is not underpowered and is good the way it is.
Sure, ADC's already do lots of damage late game, but can some extra damage hurt? :P
Thank you for your reply anyway,
-Meiyjhe
Firstly, you can't reduce an enemy's armor below 0 with Armor PENETRATION. You can with Armor REDUCTION but not PENETRATION. So your damage at level 1 with Armor Pen is ALOT weaker than you think.
Secondly, do not round up or down numbers. 66.4 AD is NOT 66 AD. If you attack someone and you have 66.4 AD and they have 0 armor you will do exactly 66.4 Damage! In the game we don't see the decimal numbers but they are still there and they all count.
Just like 11.48 Armor will not block 10% of an enemy's physical damage, it will block 10.2978% of their damage. Pretty much every decimal is important and should be kept.
Another thing, % Armor Penetration does not stack additively. So the 8% you get from Masteries and the 35% you get from
There are all small mistakes everywhere in your post that make the final answers really wrong. The real answer is: Flat AD is by far better than Armor Pen early game because of significantly stronger autoattacks AND spell damage (unless you have no AD ratios on your spells lol). And Armor Pen has always been and will always be better for late game.
Since AD carries already rape everyone late game, what you want is something that will help you dominate your lane so you can carry the game. This is also known as get Flat AD Runes on every single AD carry you nooblord (joking lol)!
AD is better against minions