Ooh I will look into adding alternate mastery pages then :D I would take utility masteries going into some matchups

On the cheat sheet yes, you can only show one mastery tree (and I still recommend showing 0/21/9 or 16/14), but on your guide you can totally show other paths. And I think the MobaFire planer for masteries is really bad, maybe a print screen of the masteries would be better.

Regarding the utility on Leona.
- Leona does have only one gap closing mechanism and her ult, but what are you gonna do if you can't get to the fight or can't even chase one opponent? Fleet of Foot and Wanderer
- Supports usually have a lot of items with actives, so that's another point for utility with Intelligence .
- Leona can make a lot of plays with Flash + Zenith Blade or Flash + Solar Flare + Zenith Blade, by taking Summoner's Insight you can make them even more often.
- If you take Wealth you'd be able to have 2x Health Potions and 1x Stealth Ward, or even 3x Health Potions as Emikadon said.

Overall, I just mean that not taking any utility is not good at all, I'd say that going at least 0/21/9 is a must.

EDIT: I don't think Leona needs Greater Mark of Magic Penetration, she needs all the defense she can have because she's always on the middle of the enemy team Greater Mark of Armor would be a much better choice.

These are essentially both related to the same issue. If I go Defense masteries, then I only have enough gold for 1 pot if I want to get a ward. I don't think 1 pot is enough for Leona the way I play her. However, if I was going Utility, I could get a couple biscuits and still have enough for the ward. With that being said, I really don't feel like Leona misses out on much by skipping the Utility tree.

• She has a great gap-closer, so she doesn't really need the movement speed.
• As far as mana champions go, she really is not very mana hungry at all.
• With Leona's amazing all-in potential, you should be getting early kills/assists, which are better than gold over time.

Now, the obvious downside to taking 0 points in Utility are that if you fall behind, it is very hard to keep up in level and gold.
And yeah, I should try to include more ways to play Leona. I'm new to this guide-writing thing, but as far as I know, you have to pick a single mastery path for the guide. I will look into adding more options for masteries in my "masteries" section, though.


Yeah my matchups really are lacking. I really don't feel like I have enough experience with enough matchups to write about them, but when I do play against a really good Lulu, i'll be sure to add a section for her :D As far as the Morgana matchup, I just can't get around it. Maybe I'm just a baddie but I always seem to get stomped if the Morgana is any good at all. I'll try your strategies next time I go against a Morgana and see if the matchup feels any easier, and possibly change my guide accordingly.
The same goes for the synergies. When I get some time, I might write about some synergies I feel strongly about.
I appreciate the feedback and I'd love to see a reply if you have the time.

That is true, and I see your point ^_^ It probably just comes down to personal playstyle, haha.

And sorry! D: I always have to correct other people about my gender, but it never occurred to me that others would have the same problem LOL. My b.

Emi, I was actually thinking about lane ganks, almost every ranked match I play against a Jarvan IV, Vi or these junglers with gap closing mechanisms, I get ganked from the lane. That's why I like to have an extra ward, so I can ward the opposing lane brush and the river brush. But maybe this is situational, I just thought it would be good to include this option as well.
Oh, and I'm a she not a he, but ok xD

^Actually, on an all-in champion like Leona, I take the extra health pots to ensure I'm healthy enough for trades. With the buff to warding totems (shorter CD than before), it's possible to keep the river warded the entire time if you coordinate with your ADC.

And I agree with Wicked Eye about the matchups. As both a Morgana and Lulu main, the points he made are completely valid. Even though Morgana's Black Shield is really annoying, she can only shield one person at a time. This especially comes in handy later in the game with teamfights, since your ult is AOE, and her shield is single-target.

The Lulu match up though. That's true a nightmare for Leona. Wicked already explained why :D You should definitely include in your matchup section, since most Leona's I've played against have no idea how to deal with her.

Oh my, that's a lot of comments to talk about maxing E first e_e.

I don't like your masteries, I agree that Leona is an initiator and needs more defense, but giving up utility just doesn't seem right, rather than just showing your play style, I suggest you to include other ways to play her as well.
I also don't like that you only take one Stealth Ward and no Stealth Ward at first buy, I feel you get too susceptible to ganks or surprise engages.

Your matchups is quite lacking. Morgana is not a nightmare for Leona, you use Zenith Blade so you'll bait her Black Shield. When you have Zenith Blade again go for an all-in engage and she can't do much besides locking you with Dark Binding, you just have to know how to dodge, which is not a mystery, I would classify her as medium. True nightmare for Leona is that ******* Lulu, you go to her carry and she polymorphs you, shield him, when you ult him, she use Wild Growth and she can poke you to 30% life with Glitterlance .-. Never saw a Morgana bring me to less 70% life if you just pay attention to the game and avoid Dark Binding, her Tormented Shadow doesn't hurt at all early game.

EDIT: I feel like Miss Fortune has a great synergy with Leona, it is the best replacement for Sona + Miss Fortune, the ult combo is pretty nice and MF also has a lot of damage.

Thanks for the input. I agree, the Blitz matchup is a rather easy one, and Mikael's is a great item on most supports. I have updated my guide accordingly.

Despite this all, you have still learned nothing and you are stubbornly stuck where you began. As a guide writer and a player in general, that is possibly one of the greatest failings.

The ratio does not matter PRECISELY because it is so small. You cannot take the instance out of the context and try to justify it. That is poor and completely invalid reasoning through and through. I said that you teach poor thought processes and time and time again you prove me right. Worse is that you simply fail to comprehend each time.

I can accept that being able to pull E+Q as a reasoning, but the ratio was never to be a reason.



You certainly implied it, since you also accused me of making a personal attack. If you did not mean to imply it, why mention it at all? I am aware of personal attack's place in argument and, once again, I reiterate that I was not making a personal attack. Telling me to look it up is also an underhand insult, implying that I have no knowledge of such things when I am clearly better-versed in it than you are.

So that's 3 strikes in that one paragraph.

1) Pretending you didn't mean me when you said "personal attack means losing an argument" when it's pretty ****ing bait.

2) Still assuming that personal attacks = losing an argument.

3) The underhanded insult after saying personal attacks are a sign of losing an argument.

Yes, I looked at your 'About Me' section. You are a decent Leona player for your tier, provided that you played those games in Gold, but when it comes down to it, that's also not necessarily relevant for making a decent Leona guide. Right now, I play frequently against Diamond and high Plat players and I've won 3 Leona games and lost none ever since I entered Platinum. Even the other day I came out of a game without dying once against Diamonds and high Plats. A player can get to Platinum alone based on mechanical skill, but very little game knowledge. I have talked to Golds and even Platinum (and in at least two situations, Diamonds) who know little to nothing about matchups, lane dynamics, DIing, itemizations and so on. Based on the explanations you've given me over the course of this discussion, I can only conclude that you don't really know what you're talking about, even though you can play well. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter when you created it or if it's your first time, or even if you love playing Leona. What matters is whether the guide is good or not; correct or not and those are the things people will be picking on in the comments section.

If you want to compare expertise, I have played Leona since Season 2. I have been a support main since Season 2, maining tanky supports with Leona at the top of all 3 seasons. I am currently Plat V with an MMR high enough to be matched against low Diamond players (which is a tad bit annoying at times...). Vynertje, who is Diamond IV support main. We both say that what you suggest might be a little questionable, it is strange that you reply by saying, 'I heartily encourage you to look at the ratios'... When you say something like that, I can only question whether you know what supporting actually is.

Also, two things I have issues with in your guide - no Mikael's Blessing and the fact that you consider Blitzcrank only a doable matchup, when Leona is probably one of his most well-established counters.

Look man, I really don't want this to go on forever, so I will give you my parting thoughts, you can reply if you wish, but I will move on after this last post. I believe the ratios on E are worth taking into account. I think the bigger reason to max E first is to be able to pull of E->Q more often.

The reason I pumped up the numbers on the damage of E was to get you to realize that ratios do matter, even if it is only a small amount of damage in this specific case.

As far as the whole "personal attacks means your losing an argument," I never said you were losing an argument. But personal attacks are without a doubt a sign that someone might be losing an argument. Look it up, its interesting stuff.

If you are questioning my knowledge or experience in the art of playing Leona, take a look at my recently added "About Me" section. You might not find it impressive, but it will hopefully at least give you an idea of my skill with Leona. You could be way beyond me, and if so just move on and find a Leona guide written by someone better than me. This is my first guide, I just created it yesterday (6/9/2014), and I'm not a pro, but I put a lot of work into this guide and I love playing Leona :D Best of luck in your games to come.

My dear god... Firstly:





Etc

This is constantly bringing it up, no matter how many times I tell you it's irrelevant. And considering the first thing you reply to us in respect to Q vs E is to LOOK AT THE RATIOS, yeah, I'd say you were focusing on it. You didn't mention the ratios in passing, you didn't use it as an add-on, but you 'heartily encouraged' us to look at the ratios. If it's not even an important factor, why would you heartily encourage us to look at it? If you're going to say something, at least stand by it, or at least admit you were wrong somewhere.

As for incorrect thought processes, the damage ratios are a start! You are a tank support and the discussion is on what skill to max second and you advocate E over Q and by way of explanation you encourage us to look at the ratios? You are already level 9 and one of your main factors is 40 extra damage by level 13? Damage ratios are never a consideration for tank supports, ESPECIALLY by level 9-13.

Then when you calculate the pros and cons which I laid out, you interpreted them incorrectly in both what is written and conclusion, even though I laid it out relatively clearly for you.

Thirdly, your curious tangents about how if Zenith Blade gave an extra 500 magic damage on it if I ranked it first, I would rank it first bares absolutely NO relevance to the topic at hand. You don't look at 'what-ifs' when considering ability maxing, you look at what the abilities actually do give you. What if Q deals so much damage it autokills Nexus upon ranking up? Who cares, that's not what it does.



Nope, I am calling your expertise into question. In other words, I am calling your validity as a serious guide writer into question. This is criticism. I didn't call you dumb. I didn't call you stupid. I didn't call you an *******. I said you don't know how to play support and I told you why. If you're taking that as an attack, I've got news for you - you're sensitive. People tell me I can't toplane for ****. It's true, I can't. Thus, I always question any top-lane knowledge I have, especially any time I talk to a toplane main. If you took offense, I'm sorry. I didn't mean it and I won't mention it again. But you seriously need to know that the thought processes and explanations you offer just aren't adequate for supports, let alone Leona specific.

Also, a person doesn't lose a debate because they resort to personal attacks. Imagine if you were talking to an imbecile (and I mean an actual medically proven imbecile) and you give valid points for an argument, but they repeatedly don't understand and make their own invalid points and incorrect reasoning for the argument. You then end it by calling them stupid. Does that mean you lost the argument? By no means. You were right the entire time. Right and wrong is not dictated by personal attacks. If you think, 'oh, he insulted me - that means he lost the argument, YAY', then you don't even understand what discussion is about either. Someone can simply be insulting because the other party is just too dense to understand and you can't really simplify it any further. Yes, personal attacks have no real place in formal discussion, but understand that this is the internet and niceties don't have to stand.

You seem to be the one who keeps on bringing up the damage ratios! I never said we need to "focus" on damage ratios. I never said that was the main reason I get E second! I never even said it was even an important reason as to why I got E before Q. All I said was that it was a factor in the equation. And, by the way, it is a small factor. So, how exactly am I teaching people an incorrect thought process in my guide? I'd love to know..


A personal attack is when you start talking about me instead of the guide or issue at hand. It is a sign that the person is losing the debate, so they resort to insults. Saying stuff like "you are dumb," or "you don't understand how to support" would be personal attacks (these are just examples).