Can you beat graves and soraka in lane?

[quote=Xaioli]Wayne got it right for the most part imo. Raka Graves loses to kill lanes like Vayne Alistar, Blitz Kog, etc. Graves is definitely a big bully in lane w/ raka but kill lanes just hurt him so much because the sustain can't save you from the big burst.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=PsiGuard] Alistar's W-Q combo is not just using W, then using Q. It's where you Q immediately after connecting with your target with your W so they go straight up instead of away from you. It's pretty hard to get your silence off in time since there's only a split-second window before you or your carry is up in the air. [/quote] I must be playing at a level where I don't see Alistars capable of that coordination. Oh well. Anyway, in this case you really don't need the silence. What's dangerous about the other combo is how long it leaves your carry CC'd and how Ali uses it to throw your carry towards his. If Ali uses his skills in this way, his minimizing the amount of time your carry spends CC'd and doesn't move your carry at all. So yes, it deals more damage than if he only used W on them, but no, it's not all that much more dangerous. Heal your carry, silence their carry for extra burst, and carry on like it's a normal trade. Which Soraka/Graves should win, due to much higher armor and MR values.[/quote]

[quote=esportarenas]Janna + Ashe?[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=lifebaka] I must be playing at a level where I don't see Alistars capable of that coordination. Oh well. Anyway, in this case you really don't need the silence. What's dangerous about the other combo is how long it leaves your carry CC'd and how Ali uses it to throw your carry towards his. If Ali uses his skills in this way, his minimizing the amount of time your carry spends CC'd and doesn't move your carry at all. So yes, it deals more damage than if he only used W on them, but no, it's not all that much more dangerous. Heal your carry, silence their carry for extra burst, and carry on like it's a normal trade. Which Soraka/Graves should win, due to much higher armor and MR values. [/quote] Consider that the W-Q combo provides the exact same benefit as a [[Flash]]-[[Pulverize]] without blowing a summoner spell. The strength of the combo isn't that it's a longer disable or does more damage. It's the fact that suddenly Alistar's stun has a huge dash attached to it. Ideally it's better to Q first and knock your target towards your carry, but most of the time your target isn't going to let you do that.[/quote]

[quote=Majamorra]Will sound weird but i've been playing [[pantheon]] as support and bassically i rape their ass. When [[soraka]] heals [[graves]] i inmediatly jump with my Stun and my combo, ofcourse [[Soraka]] will silence me but this allow to my carry to deal alots of damage to [[graves]].[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=esportarenas] Janna + Ashe? [/quote] Probably not. Graves has too much burst, he can just dash in and harass with [[Buckshot]] repeatedly, due to Soraka's mana sustain. And in straight trades, Soraka's heal armor buff beats Janna's shield damage buff massively, because Janna's damage buff goes away when the shield pops (which it will, after Graves uses Buckshot). Janna and Ashe should be able to get away from any hard engages that Graves and Soraka try, due to slows and the whirlwind, but I don't think they have an advantage in lane. [quote=PsiGuard] Consider that the W-Q combo provides the exact same benefit as a [[Flash]]-[[Pulverize]] without blowing a summoner spell. The strength of the combo isn't that it's a longer disable or does more damage. It's the fact that suddenly Alistar's stun has a huge dash attached to it. [/quote] Unless I'm missing something, this seems to be a higher-damage-higher-mana-cost version of Taric's stun. Which you deal with the same way that I already described: Heal your carry, silence their carry, and proceed with the trade. Even with the stun, you should win the trade due to massively higher armor and Graves's burst. [quote=Majamorra] When [[soraka]] heals [[graves]] i inmediatly jump with my Stun and my combo, ofcourse [[Soraka]] will silence me but this allow to my carry to deal alots of damage to [[graves]]. [/quote] If you're going to do this to Graves, you should wait for the armor buff from Soraka's heal to wear off. Otherwise, you're hitting Graves when he has at least 25 bonus armor (with rank 1 [[Astral Blessing]]), which is going to cause you to deal far less damage. The cooldown on Astral Blessing is quite high, so you'll have plenty of time after she uses it. However, this has more to do with Soraka's weakness against true kill lanes than any particular strengths of Pantheon. (Because really, you aren't really supporting with Pantheon, you're running a kill lane.)[/quote]

[quote=KRDemoZ]The 2 times I've seen a [[Soraka]] + [[Graves]] bot lane we dominated them. Keep it mind that it's just some level 30's playing a normal, but I've found the key way to defeat them is from out sustaining them. [[Zilean]] + [[Alistar]] with [[Caitlyn]] or [[Ashe]] mid.[/quote]

[quote=Toshabi][[leona]] + [[jarvan]][/quote]

[quote=Sujing]Yes, any sort of lane is beatable. It depends on your skill level and your support skill level vs theirs. In addition to that, the jungler has a big part with their ganks being successful or not. Runes and masteries are also factors deciding which lane has an advantage, although minor. You have to consider everything that could affect your gameplay and why the lane outcome resulted the way it did. I'll say go a very aggressive lane bot that can push [[Graves]] and his support to their turret. This of course requires you to ward the river/tribush to prevent their jungler or AP mid to successfully gank your lane. You should also recall when you push to their turret.[/quote]

[quote=A Chubby Baby]soraka got nerfed like mad, so no problem against soraka, as for graves? sivir rapes graves. period.[/quote]