Rudmed
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In my eyes there is only justice
Thank you Xiaowiriamujhoijhoi JEFFY40HANDS JakofSpaydes
Check out my AP/AD TF Build
My opinion: TF is too weak in terms of nuke or DPS to fit either roles as well as Annie or Corki might. The balance to these short commings? His global ulti.
People are *****ing and moaning that TF's ulti can lead to back dooring or easy kills....Things I have to say to using THAT concept as a reason to justify TFs ulti being nerfed are as follows:
-Knowing is half the battle; if a Karthus is on the opposing team and you're at 200 or 300 HP it is safe to say the moment you realize Karthas is level 6 you probably want to return to base ASAP. Same thought applies to TF, if a TF is on the other team then it is up to the player to make a judgement call, do you stay in the lane or do you B for safety? If you push your lane a bit too hard you might get ganked. Amumu or WW or Udyr have just as much of a chance to get 2 kills on you by flanking you from behind. When a TF or Karthas or even Shen or PLAYERS WHO TAKE TELEPORT are on the opposing team YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR PLAYSTYLE.
Taking into account what your enemies are capeable of is important, NEGLECTING that is a mistake. Nerfing TFs ulti because people get mad about him killing them over and over when they know DAMN well that a 1v2 can turn into a 2v2 or a 2v2 into a 2v3 etc is stupid. It's childish and it's opinionated not factual.
-The factual arguement, that TF has ****** strength back dooring capabilities. Once again knowing is half the battle, TF on the opposing team? Well watch out for back dooring. Take teleport to aid in countering him. There is a risk reward with TF BDing. That being he forces a 4v5 in the favor of the opposing team. Your team wins a because you have the extra person, you can get baron, get turrets, inhibs etc. There are gambles to having a TF, yes TF can BD so can Yi or Pantheon, they are champs adept at that type of stuff. Countering them relies once again switching up your play style. I'm not saying TFs bding isn't strong it clearly is, but he does have a risk/reward and exploiting the risk is a great way to force him to team fight instead of bding.
Either way, I don't like that TFs ulti change will essentially force him to mid every game. I don't like that IT DOES restrict his liberties in terms of where or when he wants to come into a teamfight. It requires him to have to leash himself to his team. It's a 5000 unit leash but seriously, in game that's restrictive in so many ways. Why would I play TF once this change takes place? It neuters him into being more predictable and less game changing of a champ, regardless of what you people for this change say. TF wont be banned anymore but he wont be played either, his ulti made him what he is. He brings little else to a team right now, and the fact that from what I've read most of the cheering for this nerf comes from people who hate the champ for his ulti and the number of times it caught them off guard....
People are *****ing and moaning that TF's ulti can lead to back dooring or easy kills....Things I have to say to using THAT concept as a reason to justify TFs ulti being nerfed are as follows:
-Knowing is half the battle; if a Karthus is on the opposing team and you're at 200 or 300 HP it is safe to say the moment you realize Karthas is level 6 you probably want to return to base ASAP. Same thought applies to TF, if a TF is on the other team then it is up to the player to make a judgement call, do you stay in the lane or do you B for safety? If you push your lane a bit too hard you might get ganked. Amumu or WW or Udyr have just as much of a chance to get 2 kills on you by flanking you from behind. When a TF or Karthas or even Shen or PLAYERS WHO TAKE TELEPORT are on the opposing team YOU NEED TO ADJUST YOUR PLAYSTYLE.
Taking into account what your enemies are capeable of is important, NEGLECTING that is a mistake. Nerfing TFs ulti because people get mad about him killing them over and over when they know DAMN well that a 1v2 can turn into a 2v2 or a 2v2 into a 2v3 etc is stupid. It's childish and it's opinionated not factual.
-The factual arguement, that TF has ****** strength back dooring capabilities. Once again knowing is half the battle, TF on the opposing team? Well watch out for back dooring. Take teleport to aid in countering him. There is a risk reward with TF BDing. That being he forces a 4v5 in the favor of the opposing team. Your team wins a because you have the extra person, you can get baron, get turrets, inhibs etc. There are gambles to having a TF, yes TF can BD so can Yi or Pantheon, they are champs adept at that type of stuff. Countering them relies once again switching up your play style. I'm not saying TFs bding isn't strong it clearly is, but he does have a risk/reward and exploiting the risk is a great way to force him to team fight instead of bding.
Either way, I don't like that TFs ulti change will essentially force him to mid every game. I don't like that IT DOES restrict his liberties in terms of where or when he wants to come into a teamfight. It requires him to have to leash himself to his team. It's a 5000 unit leash but seriously, in game that's restrictive in so many ways. Why would I play TF once this change takes place? It neuters him into being more predictable and less game changing of a champ, regardless of what you people for this change say. TF wont be banned anymore but he wont be played either, his ulti made him what he is. He brings little else to a team right now, and the fact that from what I've read most of the cheering for this nerf comes from people who hate the champ for his ulti and the number of times it caught them off guard....
@Rudmed:
1. You're still ignoring the element of surprise.
If this weren't a factor, TF wouldn't be getting nerfed would he? Destiny doesn't tell you where TF will show up. It just tells you: "RUN, BETCH, RUN!"
3. You're still ignoring the fact it'll be less pressure.
You're missing the point.
The lower pressure is good for the enemy players' game. You seem to think that has no impact, which is the only reason I'm continuing this section of our debate.
The lower pressure (or shorter range) means players can commit to fights against TF's allies more. That makes the game more enjoyable. They can actually time their ganks/fights so that they can escape before TF arrives to help.
This isn't possible when Twisted Fate's zone of pressure is the entire map.
4. You don't have to throw Wild Cards perfectly to land hits.
Because nobody dodges perfect.
A little intuition and good timing lets you land a solid amount of Wild Cards.
Example:
-Watching your own minions health to see which minions they'll try to last-hit.
Landing every single Q would mean raping the enemy, and forcing them to recall or die; and that the enemy sucks at dodging.
Landing a few/majority is a good lane
Landing none means you suck at aiming.
The basis for your argument is that anyone with a brain can dodge Wild Cards just by trying harder.
UNTRUE.
5. The less mistakes Twisted Fate makes, the more abusive it is.
The degree to which a TF player makes mistakes is what makes the abuse vary and give others an argument to why TF is balanced.
However, in top tier game play, some players don't make enough mistakes for you to make a comeback. Sure, they make a few, but they're already accomplishing enough that you're being crushed.
And in pubstomping, it's the enemies that are making so many more mistakes then the TF player that they can't possibly capitalize on TF's mistakes.
That's what is wrong with TF. When there are less mistakes being made compared to the enemy, he becomes abusive and broken.
You may not think it happens very often, but any instance is considered bad and undesirable.
@the FPS comment:
Telling Riot to make an FPS is an invalid argument.
If you dislike their view of wanting aggressive play, then quit playing LoL.
Otherwise, you have to admit your view of LoL is wrong, because Riot decides what's right and they have superior data and a more accurate view on the state of affairs combined with people whose job it is to decide what's good/bad.
Aggression and Strategy are not exclusive of each other.
When a jungler decides to gank a lane that's not overextended - THAT IS AGGRESSIVE PLAY.
Aggression doesn't mean mindless anger. It can mean decisively going on the offensive in a smart manner. Twisted Fate's map-wide pressure can suppress any desirable/enjoyable aggressive play in higher tiers.
1. You're still ignoring the element of surprise.
If this weren't a factor, TF wouldn't be getting nerfed would he? Destiny doesn't tell you where TF will show up. It just tells you: "RUN, BETCH, RUN!"
3. You're still ignoring the fact it'll be less pressure.
You're missing the point.
The lower pressure is good for the enemy players' game. You seem to think that has no impact, which is the only reason I'm continuing this section of our debate.
The lower pressure (or shorter range) means players can commit to fights against TF's allies more. That makes the game more enjoyable. They can actually time their ganks/fights so that they can escape before TF arrives to help.
This isn't possible when Twisted Fate's zone of pressure is the entire map.
4. You don't have to throw Wild Cards perfectly to land hits.
Because nobody dodges perfect.
A little intuition and good timing lets you land a solid amount of Wild Cards.
Example:
-Watching your own minions health to see which minions they'll try to last-hit.
Landing every single Q would mean raping the enemy, and forcing them to recall or die; and that the enemy sucks at dodging.
Landing a few/majority is a good lane
Landing none means you suck at aiming.
The basis for your argument is that anyone with a brain can dodge Wild Cards just by trying harder.
UNTRUE.
5. The less mistakes Twisted Fate makes, the more abusive it is.
The degree to which a TF player makes mistakes is what makes the abuse vary and give others an argument to why TF is balanced.
However, in top tier game play, some players don't make enough mistakes for you to make a comeback. Sure, they make a few, but they're already accomplishing enough that you're being crushed.
And in pubstomping, it's the enemies that are making so many more mistakes then the TF player that they can't possibly capitalize on TF's mistakes.
That's what is wrong with TF. When there are less mistakes being made compared to the enemy, he becomes abusive and broken.
You may not think it happens very often, but any instance is considered bad and undesirable.
@the FPS comment:
Telling Riot to make an FPS is an invalid argument.
If you dislike their view of wanting aggressive play, then quit playing LoL.
Otherwise, you have to admit your view of LoL is wrong, because Riot decides what's right and they have superior data and a more accurate view on the state of affairs combined with people whose job it is to decide what's good/bad.
Aggression and Strategy are not exclusive of each other.
When a jungler decides to gank a lane that's not overextended - THAT IS AGGRESSIVE PLAY.
Aggression doesn't mean mindless anger. It can mean decisively going on the offensive in a smart manner. Twisted Fate's map-wide pressure can suppress any desirable/enjoyable aggressive play in higher tiers.
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Rudmed
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@Jun, Well this debate has been going on for a while, and if we keep this up we will be butting heads forever. I don't see a middle ground.
You have missed my point with number 4 I was asking what champions don't exactly stack up against TF? That was my question.
You have missed my point with number 4 I was asking what champions don't exactly stack up against TF? That was my question.
In my eyes there is only justice
Thank you Xiaowiriamujhoijhoi JEFFY40HANDS JakofSpaydes
How to tank guide (Revamped! 10/13)
Of course there's no middle ground. Just a burden of knowledge on your part to learn how Riot does things or view things.
And off the top of my head...
Lux, Veigar, Tristana, Ryze, and... Anivia. These champions I can fight in confidence with Twisted Fate.
Anivia is a bit trickier, you have to bait her stun and then return harass repeated and get her to waste her egg.
The newer ranged champions are basically a big "F U" to TF because Riot's been allowing a power-creep to occur.
Something they're trying to pull back on.
And off the top of my head...
Lux, Veigar, Tristana, Ryze, and... Anivia. These champions I can fight in confidence with Twisted Fate.
Anivia is a bit trickier, you have to bait her stun and then return harass repeated and get her to waste her egg.
The newer ranged champions are basically a big "F U" to TF because Riot's been allowing a power-creep to occur.
Something they're trying to pull back on.
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The DevTracker - For all of LoL's latest developments! | Spongebob Squarepants - The Pride of Bikini Bottom
Guides of Mine - Click the... Eh... Come back later
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Rudmed
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Okay I can kind've agree with those champions, but I still have to say they are freaking annoying to lane against.
Hey those OP champs promote agressive play after all. Though not that I hate agressive play, I like it, but I also know that it is risky. This game doesn't allow much risk after all, look at what happens when a champ gets fed.
Its kind of like Jeffy40hands said. You know now adjust, Oh he used his ult recently? Go ahead be aggresive no consquences for the next minute and half. I mean 1v1's turning into 2v1s isn't something new. I mean, Shen, Panth, and a vareity of stealth/roamers/ junglers can do the same thing.
While humans are the most adjustable creatues on Earth, but we don't like to adjust. Though we are up to complaining, but that doesn't tend to fix the problem imedditaly, so they need to adjust.
Hey those OP champs promote agressive play after all. Though not that I hate agressive play, I like it, but I also know that it is risky. This game doesn't allow much risk after all, look at what happens when a champ gets fed.
Its kind of like Jeffy40hands said. You know now adjust, Oh he used his ult recently? Go ahead be aggresive no consquences for the next minute and half. I mean 1v1's turning into 2v1s isn't something new. I mean, Shen, Panth, and a vareity of stealth/roamers/ junglers can do the same thing.
While humans are the most adjustable creatues on Earth, but we don't like to adjust. Though we are up to complaining, but that doesn't tend to fix the problem imedditaly, so they need to adjust.
In my eyes there is only justice
Thank you Xiaowiriamujhoijhoi JEFFY40HANDS JakofSpaydes
How to tank guide (Revamped! 10/13)
Jaysnn
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1. Right they don't, but if you have a longer range stun then TF then you can do that instead. Guess what that will be off cooldown before Destiny. Though Summoner spells may come off cooldown when he decides to gank again. Because you just never know huh? Oh and more about his warp time. Why were two seconds stuns reduced to 1.5 seconds? Simple alot can happen in two seconds, a champion could be killed in two seconds, or you can escape TF in two seconds.
3. That is a difference of playstyles if you go back at 6 waiting for a gank thats a okay. That is not how I do it. If I am at 3/4th health, and I see a lane overextended from mid, then I'm like "Lets gank them" Boom ganks overs. Even with the nerf as long as I am 6 and mid the pressure will apply for early game. I am much less obvious then most TF.
4. Well I was talking about champions, that can't stand up against Squishy, slow moving, and short AA range TF. Not people who throw wild cards perfectly every single time.
5. Now then moving on to about these self-rightous statements. I kinda like the one where you said something along these lines. "Mistakes have to be made on TF's player part." It sounds like that TF players never make mistakes and are perfect. Well my friend that is so wrong its not even funny. No TF player I've seen is perfect, we will all make mistakes at some point.
As for your scenarios why are you still fighting? Oh its destiny maybe I should run away like right now toward a teammate, in fact here comes my ally in mid to try and save me. See ya TF. I mean that is what you High ELO players would do right? Try to save one another? I mean seriously you never mention where the heck the other teammates are in your scenarios, so I'm just saying. Maybe even logical action?
Now if Riot seriously wants aggressive play then they probaly should have made an FPS, not a game that requires Teamfighting, or stratagey.
You right about TF Jun he isn't any different from any other carry, he is just sub-par. Compare his burst to Leblanc Malz, Kassadin, or Viegar. Compare him to Ashe, Cait, or even vayne.
@Queso, while that maybe true, but there are times were you don't pick the fights, but they sure pick you. TF's current ult is like accident forgiveness, but if he has to run in order to ult in its already over. Now it is a 5v1 or a 4v1 while TF waits for his allies. Unable to hold anything less they towerdive him. In fact because TF's team was pushing, and being aggressive shouldn't Riot hate this when it happens?
Of course, we can't interperet this because we aren't them.