New Amumu masteries

[quote=TcelesBHsup]I suggested a 9/21/0 build because I feel like it is better than the 2 you had suggested and it wasn't clear why you limiting yourself to just those two builds. I was specifying that I use it with a non standard jungle build/route because I think that's relevant to a discussion about masteries, and I thought there was no reason to explain which they are. If you are completely closed off to anything other than those 2 set ups then I apologize for trying to help, but I've found this to be much more effective for my Jungle Amumu and thought it would be helpful to the discussion. [masteries=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-4-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=1-0-2-2-0-3-2-0-3-1-0-3-0-3-0-1&tree3=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2] While I know the speed boost from [[Swiftness]] is attractive I don't think it's worth not having the 10% spell pen. Especially since I'm never below 70% health with this build, so I keep the benefit from [[Initiator]]. I think [[amumu]] is the only jungler that can jungle without sacrificing any of his ability to be a real tank into the late game. Before he had to take Utility tree but now I don't feel that he does. I brought up the [[Philosopher's Stone]] build because it is a free way to make up for not using the Utility tree for the little bit of mana regen, and the buff duration, since you should be giving your buff to Mid/solo anyway. That is what makes the Masteries better in my opinion. The fact that they synergize better within group dynamics instead of just while you are jungling. Also I suggested switching out the quints to [[Greater Quintessence of Vigor]] as an addendum to this mastery build, because without it you will not be high enough Hp to really gank it helps much more than the [[Greater Quintessence of Resilience]], especially with then downtime you have walking from lane to lane while the creeps are dead and you are setting up ganks. It is also extremely versatile which is important when things don't turn out the way you want. Without this change I feel like the quints you have make these masteries not work as well because you are just a little too low health for lvl 3 gank. I'm sorry if that was unclear from my first post But I thought it was strange that no one was even suggesting the offense tree, which has a few nice things in it now to help Amumu do some damage into the late game while not sacrificing much during his jungle phase.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=NicknameMy] The thing is, you want to have the most usefull masteries for your character through the whole game. The thing is, while [[bladed armor]] only helps you at jungling, HP helps you at jungling and also later in the game. With high resists, any bit of HP is very effective.[/quote] Yes, but this is AMUMU we're talking about. He's never been very strong at early jungling and has great use of every boost he can get. [quote]I think stonewall said that already. [url=http://clgaming.net/board/board39-reign-of-gaming/board40-blogs/board47-stonewalls-jungle/4268-the-new-masteries-and-jungling/?s=fb9a7415591d8ed0c5f37c99b0fb567f7e49b12e]Focus build and transition build.[/url][/quote] Irrelevant.. Don't bring up stuff that isn't relevant. [quote]And this is because, you have to go with [[greater quintessence of swiftness]]. It is the best Quint you can get on [[amumu]] through the entire game.[/quote] "you have to go with.." You make my head hurt sometimes. Yes, MS is great on Amumu, BUT armor allows a whole different start and helps your jungling IMMENSELY.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I disagree that a spread won't be good, although I do feel the benefits of juggernaut are so big you should take defense.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Hmm, and what happens, if you go Armor Marks and MS Quints? You have to skip red, but well, do it after you got [[philosopher's stone]] from base and then gank. Your buff time on red is even higher then.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=TcelesBHsup] Also I suggested switching out the quints to [[Greater Quintessence of Vigor]] as an addendum to this mastery build, because without it you will not be high enough Hp to really gank it helps much more than the [[Greater Quintessence of Resilience]], especially with then downtime you have walking from lane to lane while the creeps are dead and you are setting up ganks. It is also extremely versatile which is important when things don't turn out the way you want. Without this change I feel like the quints you have make these masteries not work as well because you are just a little too low health for lvl 3 gank.[/quote] Do you own the armor quints? I own HP5 quint and can tell you that armor enables you to LIVE on my path with my starting items, while HP5 doesn't (without leash, with leash I think you'll survive with HP5). Without going into too much detail I can just tell you that Armor is better than HP5. It saves far more HP than HP5 regenerates. [quote]I'm sorry if that was unclear from my first post But I thought it was strange that no one was even suggesting the offense tree, which has a few nice things in it now to help Amumu do some damage into the late game while not sacrificing much during his jungle phase.[/quote] It seems you're lacking knowledge of game mechanics. The magic penetration isn't that useful because %penetration is applied last, after all the other reduction/penetration. That basically means that it will decrease the usefulness of your [[Cursed Touch]] and other penetration and reduction sources. That's why I run magic penetration marks and buy [[Abyssal Scepter]] in 90% of my matches. They simply synergize with your passive much better.[/quote]

[quote=TcelesBHsup]On my route, hp regen works much better than armor. I tried the standard blue-->small golem skipping red and ended up about at about 180 hp at 3:12, but by the time I got into position I was at almost 300. That is a big difference, not sure what your health is when you get to position but probably better for a standard route. I do wraith->wolf->Blue for a sustain route and do a level 3 gank on top or mid, with this build/route the gank happens at about 3:00 and nearly 600 health. If I do Armor quints instead, my health is at about 180. So on my route hp regen is much much better. As far game mechanics go I understand then fully well, the equation are extremely simple especially for a FFXI vet. I assume you know them too. Firstly [[Abyssal Scepter]] + [[Cursed Touch]] is magnificent, except that lowering magic resist in the first thing that is applied. so by late game you are dealing with 1 of 3 scenarios. 1. Carry- built no Magic resist, natural magic resist on AP carries is about 30. Meaning 30 -(35+20) = -25 magic resist; that is great because it increases magic damage by 20%. It also means every other magic penetration stat is worthless. 2. Carry- built some magic resist, let's say a [[Banshee's Veil]], that is 50 magic resist (50 + 30) - (35 +20) = 25 magic resist left which is still 20% reduction. Any of your AP carries have more than 25 magic pen to get the job done. But unless you build flat magic pen you are still looking at 20% reduction. With 10% spell pen this brings the number down to 22.5 magic pen which is 18.4% reduction. This is essentially a break even scenerio, with either build requiring more flat magic pen to get the job done for you.. however you AP carries are still doing true damage. 3. Tanks- People who build 2 Magic resist items or more. Once you buy a few magic resist items, there is no point in using [[Cursed Touch]] on them any more because they are big bulky targets that probably do not do a lot of damage. You are focusing on get true damage on Carries, not on getting a tank you has 150 Magic resist from 60% reduction to 50% reduction. It's simply not worth the auto attack. Tanks will get softened up from [[Despair]]. The higher the health the more damage and the higher the health generally the more Magic resist. Having 10% magic pen will bring 60% down to 57%, and at 200 magic resist 67% down to 64%. That is about a 5% increase in damage against a tank. Without doing anything extra. That is nothing to scoff at. It's not Like I'm saying run [[Void Staff]], I'm saying that 10% magic pen does more than it seems like it would against high magic resist champs. Which are the champs we're are concerned about as an AoE force. It is due to the [[Cursed Touch]] + [[Abyssal Scepter]] mechanic that makes it more viable because it helps cover the scenerios for which lowering Magic Resist by your passive does not apply. Also it's not like you have to choose between them, You can have both! I also don't see how it decreases the effect of [[Cursed Touch]] when it is applied after, if anything Cursed touch is lowering the effectiveness of spell pen %. I understand your point that in general you don't mix % with flat magic pen because they reduce each others effectiveness. I would have to disagree with you about about this way of thinking when you compare the effects at "less than 55 magic resist worth of lowering" vs. with "spell pen%". They operate at different ends of the spectrum, and often do not function simultaneously, especially in regards to AoE abilities where the target may not be the focus. Also we are considering this vs. 9 in the utility tree which only has magic regen and move speed, which is not nearly as good. If you do full defense tree, you don't need move speed for ganks as Amumu because he has [[Bandage Toss]]. The extra AP will help your jungle clear time, which is typically faster then creep respawn time anyway and the spell % helps your damage late game. And yes I own Armor Quints, not sure why all the animosity. Also personally I wouldn't do full Utility tree because theoretically you will tanking, and [[Juggernaut]] is too good stacked with Tenacity. Also, when considering the Utility Tree, getting the [[Smite]] early really depends on you route how much it speeds things up. It is good for at home junglers (like [[Trundle]] or [[Nocturne]] but if your Jungle is your main tank, that is not really an option.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Searz] It saves far more HP than HP5 regenerates. [/quote] It also scales better into end game to boot~[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=TcelesBHsup] On my route, hp regen works much better than armor. I tried the standard blue-->small golem skipping red and ended up about at about 180 hp at 3:12, but by the time I got into position I was at almost 300. That is a big difference, not sure what your health is when you get to position but probably better for a standard route. I do wraith->wolf->Blue for a sustain route and do a level 3 gank on top or mid, with this build/route the gank happens at about 3:00 and nearly 600 health. If I do Armor quints instead, my health is at about 180. So on my route hp regen is much much better.[/quote] You are doing something strange because those numbers are off. That's too fast to be able to achieve without a leash and/or help. I will have to say though that after further testing I'm getting the same HP results on HP5 and Armor quints. I did something wrong and they may indeed be good enough to rival armor quints. But you'll have to keep in mind that HP5 is quite bad in lategame while armor still is useful there. [quote]I also don't see how it decreases the effect of [[Cursed Touch]] when it is applied after, if anything Cursed touch is lowering the effectiveness of spell pen %.[/quote] The fact is that you lose bonuses, and you lose them for picking up %MrP. That's why %MrP isn't a good idea. [quote]Also personally I wouldn't do full Utility tree because theoretically you will tanking, and [[Juggernaut]] is too good stacked with Tenacity.[/quote] Funny thing is; lots of tanks used the old utility tree because it was more useful than defense. Utility is useful [u]no matter what you play[/u]. You have to chose between 4AP+4%CDR+10%MrP or -1sec recall time, 4% reduced time dead, 4 mana per level, -15sec cooldown on [[Flash]], 2% movement speed and +20% buff duration I like the utility more and I believe 90% of players will agree on that one.[/quote]

[quote=TcelesBHsup]The numbers on my jungle route are real/accurate and are even faster with [[Trundle]] (90% health), [[Poppy]](40%) health, and [[Rammus]] (40% health). After the intercollegiate tournament thanksgiving weekend I'll probably make a build with the route in it, but may use it for the upcoming tournament if we stick to standard meta, PM me after to remind me, I don't really go on mobafire too often.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Your numbers are wrong. You can't have done the same thing as me (with the same build) and get ~10seconds faster. Unless you prove it I'm gonna assume your numbers are wrong. Please do post a video link or whatever. I'd love to be proven wrong because I like Amumu and getting better is always good. Keep in mind that the numbers I put up are WITHOUT a leash.[/quote]