Thoughts on the New Jungle?

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=Temzilla] Currently, Rammus, Nocturne, and Shaco are all really good. Gank ALL DAY. Win your lanes for your laners, and you should win the game ez. The purpose of a Jungler in the current meta is to apply pressure to lanes. You can't camp lanes, because your other lanes will lose, but you have to gank all the time, or you will fall behind a ganking jungler. [/quote] lolwat? Part of this is right. Shaco, Rammus, Nocturne, Lee, Riven, all of those are good junglers. But you don't want to gank all day.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=React] I personally don't understand why Riot fixed something that was never broken... annoying really. How about you guys?[/quote] Here's the gist of it: It was broken. You just got used to it. People used to think riding by horse was the best way - Then someone attached a cart to the horse "Oh yes, this is the way to travel!" People used to think the Earth was flat - Obviously a broken concept. People thought witch-hunts were okay before. That was obviously stupid. Slavery used to be a perfectly normal part of America - Well, they went and fixed that too. Point is, they fixed the "not broken" jungle because, in actuality, it was broken. Societies and communities are very good at becoming accustomed to and attached to things when there's no other option. [quote=React]EDIT: From what I see, Riot might bring back the old jungle. =) [/quote] They're not. You're deluding yourself. Riot has found that the new jungle is going where they want it to go. They just need to bump the exp and the minion gold rates up a bit so ganking won't cause you to fall behind anymore. They like the new jungle. Hey, I like the new jungle. They were just a little off with the numbers. [b][color=#ffff00]Those who feel they're leveling too slowly - This is not intended. They want the EXP rates to have you somewhere between being 'ahead of bottom duo lane' and 'slightly behind solo-mid' even if you're ganking occasionally. Note: The average time to hit level4 however, should be 3:40~4:20 - The new masteries were suppose to come out with this patch, not before (that caused people to go nuts over crazy clear times like 3:20).[/color][/b][/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote]Here's the gist of it: It was broken. You just got used to it.[/quote] lololololololololol. Wasn't broken. LoL player's QQ'd about not being able to farm cuz junglers. Riot went 'ok' and then nerfed the shit out of it, completely changing the point of the jungler. It's their game, they can do what they want. But I liked the game better the way it was.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@NightHawk: It was broken. You're just unaware of it. "I liked the game better the way it was." <- See your words? That's your silly human brain telling you "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE", nothing more. You have no way to properly justify why the old jungle was better. Just that you liked it. Let me try to break it down for you. "Riot went 'ok' and then nerfed the shit out of it, completely changing the point of the jungler." ^ Your words Here's what's wrong: What IS the point of being a jungler? [color=#ffff00]The jungler's role is to merely be a champion who can stay in the jungle to acquire resources, as opposed to the lane.[/color] NOTHING MORE. Anything else is merely a footnote from the metagame. Not something intended for the core game designs. ^ Anything you feel is a part of being "a jungler" is not true. It's just a lingering guideline to a past metagame. Something the players worked out, not what Riot had planned. Ganking, Counter-jungling, Buff Control - All of those things are tasks everyone is suppose to take part in. It's not all the jungler's job. Those tasks becoming unique to the jungler only resulted from there being nothing to do after you've cleared the jungle. Oh look, that's what they changed - Jungle creeps respawn more. The previous jungle WAS broken. Once you hit level4~5 you had to gank, or end up falling behind. That meant the lanes would usually expect a gank, and play extremely passively. Riot doesn't want that passivity. So they're giving the jungler more options besides ganking. Ergo, staying in the jungle to farm.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=JunSupport] Let me try to break it down for you. [/quote] Please, go ahead, Can you add a beat to it too? [quote=JunSupport] [color=#ffff00]The jungler's role is to merely be a champion who can stay in the jungle to acquire resources, as opposed to the lane.[/color] NOTHING MORE. Anything else is merely a footnote from the metagame. Not something intended for the core game designs. [/quote] This is where the new jungle comes in. The have integrated the "laning" part of "The Fourth Lane" into the jungle and now, it's a farm fest. The jungler is now there to secure more gold overall. People can't get past the fact that, unless the enemy is severely over-extended, you're not going to get a gank unless you really need it. Then he's going to cover for you as you probably need to go back. [quote=JunSupport] Ganking, Counter-jungling, Buff Control - All of those things are tasks everyone is suppose to take part in. It's not all the jungler's job. Those tasks becoming unique to the jungler only resulted from there being nothing to do after you've cleared the jungle. [/quote] Honestly, it was the jungler's job. How often, other than early game, did you see mid lane go out of their way to mess around with the jungle other than saying "I'm stealing your wraiths, kthanksbai." or when you give them blue buff? [quote=JunSupport] The previous jungle WAS broken. Once you hit level4~5 you had to gank, or end up falling behind. That meant the lanes would usually expect a gank, and play extremely passively. [/quote] I don't know about you but, I've always played aggressively past 4. It lets other lanes play aggressively as well and it just overall snowballs well. Passive lanes are not rewarded. [quote=JunSupport] Riot doesn't want that passivity. So they're giving the jungler more options besides ganking. Ergo, staying in the jungle to farm. [/quote] Unfortunately, in doing that, they've forced the junglers to play passively. Ganks are called from 3 lanes at once and, unless you are TF, Nocturne or Pantheon, how are you going to deal with that? Overall, the jungler is now meant to farm the jungle, just as bot lane does, and cover when called for, ganking only when absolutely necessarily. It was a bad design choice with the terrible EXP levels and I'm glad they're at least trying to fix it. I'd love if we could have the old jungle back simply because it was simpler. Sure there are new paths in this one but, you can't do the paths that you once could. Golems->ganking no longer works and makes for some interesting choices by veteran junglers.[/quote]

[quote=Toshabi]I really enjoy how Jun gets a god complex over a video game and has the need to demean people who disagree with him. His responses at defending this new jungle and his attempts at trying to sound informed and so smart have been a delight for me to watch. It's sort of like watching a retarded kid covered in ants. Anyways, continue.[/quote]

[quote=thebigd]If they just raised the amount of gold, you could be 2 levels behind, but well farmed. That would allow the lanes to play more aggressive, because there wouldn't be as much of a threat from the jungler until later. As it is now, you get no advantage from a dedicated jungler and would always be better off with 2-1-2.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=JunSupport] @NightHawk: It was broken. You're just unaware of it. "I liked the game better the way it was." <- See your words? That's your silly human brain telling you "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE", nothing more. You have no way to properly justify why the old jungle was better. Just that you liked it. Let me try to break it down for you. "Riot went 'ok' and then nerfed the shit out of it, completely changing the point of the jungler." ^ Your words Here's what's wrong: What IS the point of being a jungler? [color=#ffff00]The jungler's role is to merely be a champion who can stay in the jungle to acquire resources, as opposed to the lane.[/color] NOTHING MORE. Anything else is merely a footnote from the metagame. Not something intended for the core game designs. ^ Anything you feel is a part of being "a jungler" is not true. It's just a lingering guideline to a past metagame. Something the players worked out, not what Riot had planned. Ganking, Counter-jungling, Buff Control - All of those things are tasks everyone is suppose to take part in. It's not all the jungler's job. Those tasks becoming unique to the jungler only resulted from there being nothing to do after you've cleared the jungle. Oh look, that's what they changed - Jungle creeps respawn more. The previous jungle WAS broken. Once you hit level4~5 you had to gank, or end up falling behind. That meant the lanes would usually expect a gank, and play extremely passively. Riot doesn't want that passivity. So they're giving the jungler more options besides ganking. Ergo, staying in the jungle to farm. [/quote] LOOOOOOL. THIS POST. OMG. LOOOOOOOL. Let me respond. First of all, I didn't know liking something better the way it was was a crime. You can tell me all you want that current TF is much better then beta TF. However, I preferred beta TF. Whatever my reasons, I preferred it. You CLEARLY have NEVER played as a jungler before. EVER. It takes very little rudimentary knowledge of the jungle to know what to do. The jungler was NEVER JUST about being a '4th lane'. The jungler has ALWAYS been supposed to gank and be aggressive. It ADDS fun to the game. It does NOT take AWAY fun. DERRRRRP. It was ALWAYS the responsibility of the JUNGLER to counter jungle. Mid and top CAN counter jungle. But it was not the design that they SHOULD counter jungle. Once you hit 4 or 5, you did not HAVE to gank. There were MANY option. You could continue to go wolves, wraiths golems and then gank. You could do dragon. You could counter jungle. What takes away fun from the game 'theoretically, because this was supposed to be Riot's take on the remake' is when junglers can do multiple routes and Gank whenever they felt like it. THAT adds passivity to the game because you have to be careful ALL the time, instead of just at 4 or 5. We all know it didn't work like that though, junglers can't gank at all anymore and even when they don't they fall behind the solo lanes. Please actually PLAY the new jungle, since it's quite obvious that you haven't. :3[/quote]

[quote=Virtus][quote=Nighthawk] [quote=JunSupport] @NightHawk: It was broken. You're just unaware of it. "I liked the game better the way it was." <- See your words? That's your silly human brain telling you "I DON'T LIKE CHANGE", nothing more. You have no way to properly justify why the old jungle was better. Just that you liked it. Let me try to break it down for you. "Riot went 'ok' and then nerfed the shit out of it, completely changing the point of the jungler." ^ Your words Here's what's wrong: What IS the point of being a jungler? [color=#ffff00]The jungler's role is to merely be a champion who can stay in the jungle to acquire resources, as opposed to the lane.[/color] NOTHING MORE. Anything else is merely a footnote from the metagame. Not something intended for the core game designs. ^ Anything you feel is a part of being "a jungler" is not true. It's just a lingering guideline to a past metagame. Something the players worked out, not what Riot had planned. Ganking, Counter-jungling, Buff Control - All of those things are tasks everyone is suppose to take part in. It's not all the jungler's job. Those tasks becoming unique to the jungler only resulted from there being nothing to do after you've cleared the jungle. Oh look, that's what they changed - Jungle creeps respawn more. The previous jungle WAS broken. Once you hit level4~5 you had to gank, or end up falling behind. That meant the lanes would usually expect a gank, and play extremely passively. Riot doesn't want that passivity. So they're giving the jungler more options besides ganking. Ergo, staying in the jungle to farm. [/quote] LOOOOOOL. THIS POST. OMG. LOOOOOOOL. Let me respond. First of all, I didn't know liking something better the way it was was a crime. You can tell me all you want that current TF is much better then beta TF. However, I preferred beta TF. Whatever my reasons, I preferred it. You CLEARLY have NEVER played as a jungler before. EVER. It takes very little rudimentary knowledge of the jungle to know what to do. The jungler was NEVER JUST about being a '4th lane'. The jungler has ALWAYS been supposed to gank and be aggressive. It ADDS fun to the game. It does NOT take AWAY fun. DERRRRRP. It was ALWAYS the responsibility of the JUNGLER to counter jungle. Mid and top CAN counter jungle. But it was not the design that they SHOULD counter jungle. Once you hit 4 or 5, you did not HAVE to gank. There were MANY option. You could continue to go wolves, wraiths golems and then gank. You could do dragon. You could counter jungle. What takes away fun from the game 'theoretically, because this was supposed to be Riot's take on the remake' is when junglers can do multiple routes and Gank whenever they felt like it. THAT adds passivity to the game because you have to be careful ALL the time, instead of just at 4 or 5. We all know it didn't work like that though, junglers can't gank at all anymore and even when they don't they fall behind the solo lanes. Please actually PLAY the new jungle, since it's quite obvious that you haven't. :3 [/quote] Lolwhat? I jungle, gank quite often (Lee Sin, Nocturne, Gangplank, Udyr, Karthus), and manage to keep up with at least the duo lanes by having successful ganks (repeat ganks if flash was burned). And who could do dragon at 4/5, because I certainly couldn't T__T I could only do it if I had Madred's and I successfully ganked bottom, with AD and support still alive. In the old patch, I ganked all of the time, not just after jungle clears. Level 2 with Lee Sin/JarvanIV OP, etc. Nocturne ganks at 3, or whenever they were necessary. And if I remember correctly, the jungle was pretty much the 4th lane, in that one acquired resources with it, but it also included ganks. However, when I am mid with an aggressive champ I gank top and bottom as much as I did while jungling. I am confused T__T[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]You had to be careful everytime, even before they started to work on junlge/lane differences. o0 The idea behind it isnt that bad (OMFGWTFBBQ Riot did sth L.O.G.I.C.A.L ??? <- that was serious) Less resources in jungle, but faster clear time + being less exhaust afterwards = more ganks -> forced aggressive gameplay for jungler!!! But, duh, things can pretty much backfire even while laying on their backs, sooooo... Less resources in jungle + Jungler has no possibility to gank early enough to balance with ganks = fuck'd -> new Meta includes Atmogs melees AND 2-1-2 lanes. Mh.. If the latter is going to happen maybe some guys will become desperate enough to go 24/7 brusing? 1-1-2 again!!! But now BSE cows/Black Death rats are just there camping you even between your towers!! Hooray, Riots secret job creation plot succeeds! They tricked you all into believing that they planned to rework the jungle to help those junglers *huehuehue*[/quote]