BOT - ADC
X1 = Stay and farm the next wave (or push it to be exact), B and get items so you aren't items behind
X2 = Same thing
X3 = Same thing if their jungler is nowhere near (or mid). If someone from enemy team is close, B.
X4 = B
EDIT: As vynnieboi said, depends on champions and position as well :p
X1 = Stay and farm the next wave (or push it to be exact), B and get items so you aren't items behind
X2 = Same thing
X3 = Same thing if their jungler is nowhere near (or mid). If someone from enemy team is close, B.
X4 = B
EDIT: As vynnieboi said, depends on champions and position as well :p
Janitsu wrote:
BOT - ADC
X1 = Stay and farm the next wave (or push it to be exact), B and get items so you aren't items behind
X2 = Same thing
X3 = Same thing if their jungler is nowhere near (or mid). If someone from enemy team is close, B.
X4 = B
X1 = Stay and farm the next wave (or push it to be exact), B and get items so you aren't items behind
X2 = Same thing
X3 = Same thing if their jungler is nowhere near (or mid). If someone from enemy team is close, B.
X4 = B
Not a fully correct answer. Depends on more factors than just that. Since you commented this as well (which is the over-simplified answer) I'll edit this post later on and add context myself.
There are multiple factors to take into consideration:
- The position of the minion wave: if it's already pushing you should try to push it out no matter what, even if you're 100 hp. Only if you don't know the junglers position and know the jungler can kill you you should back out. If the wave is pushing towards you, you may want to let it freeze just in front of your turret, more details on this below.
- Your ability to push a wave quickly: if you can't push the wave out in time and if it's not already automatically pushing you may again want to let it freeze towards you, just so the enemy can't freeze it on you instead because you failed to push it in before the enemy could return.
- Availability of TP or not, both for you and the enemy. Lingering around too long with TP up for your enemy can kill you, or can force you to get a really poor base off. Freezing while the enemy has TP up while you know yours is down is risky as well, enemy can TP to a minion and push the wave in your tower before you can get back to lane.
- Knowledge about jungler's whereabouts: if you're low and know the jungler can kill you, you may have to lick your wounds and back off.
- General strength of the two laners: freezing is often very risky when you're behind as it often costs you HP and it's very hard to maintain a good freeze when the enemy can pressure you under a big minion wave.
- Whether you want to take a turret asap or rather deny the enemy as much cs as possible. If you're ahead and want to keep your enemy down it's better to freeze, if you want to snowball a lead instead you may want to push the tower instead.
- Some other things, like whether you need the CS right now to get your item (take the farm and push) or not (consider freezing and taking the cs after basing).
As you can see, there are a lot of possible factors to consider and it's impossible to give a decisive answer to your question. Things like this come with experience and there's no simple way to learn this.
Vynertje wrote:
Care to be more specific?
Maybe the reason behind the question will help.
I've recently being making efforts to look at opportunities around the map based on the current situation. E.g., My jungler ganked bot and we killed their laners and are still in good shape resource wise. What should happen next? Dragon? All rotate to gank mid? Take Bot Tower? Gank Mid and then siege Mid tower if we have a minion wave and get a kill?
Because that sort of thinking/action seems to snowball games.
In my mental checklist I did have "Where is the enemy jungler?" but I did not have does the enemy Top laner have
Teleport and is it up? Does my Top laner have Teleport and is it up. So appreciate you putting together some details despite the lack of specificity in my question.Hoping other experienced players will also chime in.
Thanks!
Dragon is almost never worth it over a tower in solo queue. Also, if your lane is pushing (and you aren't laning mid) after a kill, but it won't push so hard that it will cleanly hit tower if you don't push it harder, it is sometimes worth staying to push even at 1% hp if you have the damage to push it. It is worth giving up a kill to someone showing up if it means you can fix your wave. If your wave gets frozen in a bad spot you can outright lose your lane and get made useless if the other laner has enough wave knowledge.
Sieging is comp and time dependent. You can't just say "let's siege!" without any regard to your team comp. There are a lot of ways to snowball games. (early drags aren't one of them though, never call for drag unless at least 2 members of the enemy team are incapacitated and your team can still fight a skirmish, unless you need to deny 4th/5th drag late into the game).
Sieging is comp and time dependent. You can't just say "let's siege!" without any regard to your team comp. There are a lot of ways to snowball games. (early drags aren't one of them though, never call for drag unless at least 2 members of the enemy team are incapacitated and your team can still fight a skirmish, unless you need to deny 4th/5th drag late into the game).
H4xDefender wrote:
Dragon is almost never worth it over a tower in solo queue. Also, if your lane is pushing (and you aren't laning mid) after a kill, but it won't push so hard that it will cleanly hit tower if you don't push it harder, it is sometimes worth staying to push even at 1% hp if you have the damage to push it. It is worth giving up a kill to someone showing up if it means you can fix your wave. If your wave gets frozen in a bad spot you can outright lose your lane and get made useless if the other laner has enough wave knowledge.
My emphasis. Wow, I wouldn't have thought to put that much into making sure the minion wave was in a good spot.
One thing I've been trying to figure out and maybe it is just wave clearing speed related, but sometimes as jungler if I have to hold a lane after my laner dies and I want to shove it out, I do the shove but our minion wave pushes to their turret just as their minion wave is getting just past their tower so our minion wave isn't quite in range to take tower shots. Dammit. What might I be doing wrong? (Thinking about it, I believe it is more of a problem with the longer lanes, but that could be a false impression).
H4xDefender wrote:
Sieging is comp and time dependent. You can't just say "let's siege!" without any regard to your team comp. There are a lot of ways to snowball games. (early drags aren't one of them though, never call for drag unless at least 2 members of the enemy team are incapacitated and your team can still fight a skirmish, unless you need to deny 4th/5th drag late into the game).
Urgh, I had an early (2nd) dragon call last night that I regret making. We had killed a couple of their champions and I thought we had time to take it but I had used Smite in the team fight that got us in position to take the dragon. But the death timers were short enough for them to get back to us and start another fight and since I didn't have Smite we lost that dragon and since our team was low from the previous skirmish we lost the team fight as well.
Towers over dragons. Go for dragons when you have a clear advantage (two of their team dead and your team in good health). The meeting point of the minions is super important. Try and setup your wave to be going in your favor or at least neutral before leaving (and this can be worth dying to achieve).
Thanks H4x!
Sirnikolai
<Member>
<Member>
For a support users mostly if your bot lane tower is being push I suggest you recall if your adc is down & your Jg is @ top lane. JG can still gank any supports.
Other way around if your pushing for their tower & their jungle is already dead, but the enemy support is still present. Try to fool him by thinking your going to mid to help out push tower instead walk through their jg camp & "Hello i was hiding" Leona.
Other way around if your pushing for their tower & their jungle is already dead, but the enemy support is still present. Try to fool him by thinking your going to mid to help out push tower instead walk through their jg camp & "Hello i was hiding"
Leona.
Sirnikolai wrote:
For a support users mostly if your bot lane tower is being push I suggest you recall if your adc is down & your Jg is @ top lane. JG can still gank any supports.
Other way around if your pushing for their tower & their jungle is already dead, but the enemy support is still present. Try to fool him by thinking your going to mid to help out push tower instead walk through their jg camp & "Hello i was hiding" Leona.
Other way around if your pushing for their tower & their jungle is already dead, but the enemy support is still present. Try to fool him by thinking your going to mid to help out push tower instead walk through their jg camp & "Hello i was hiding"
Leona.Interesting. Hadn't really considered ways to get at a support that is tower hugging that way.
So, if their jungler is dead, their support is by themselves and possibly low health after you've killed the ADC, and you know where their mid laner is at then sneak through their jungle and come at the support from behind.
Conversely, if you are the support in the reverse situation, it is probably just best to back off and base or go mid and do what you can to help your mid laner out.
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X = 90% or higher
X = half
x = quarter
x = so low you are scared of minion aggro killing you.