My thoughts about nerfing wards

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Lugignaf] lastly, I like playing my support Alistar while legitly [i]trying[/i] to steal CS. Keeps my AD carry on their toes. Makes them actually have to focus on the fight instead of "R-click...R-click...R-click..." I also tend to let them tank some shots and then zone the other AD carry while getting my own CS. make me much more a threat later game without really sacrificing too much if I'm doing a good job of zoning, like I do. [/quote] You are the cancer that is killing LoL.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Temzilla] [quote=Lugignaf] lastly, I like playing my support Alistar while legitly [i]trying[/i] to steal CS. Keeps my AD carry on their toes. Makes them actually have to focus on the fight instead of "R-click...R-click...R-click..." I also tend to let them tank some shots and then zone the other AD carry while getting my own CS. make me much more a threat later game without really sacrificing too much if I'm doing a good job of zoning, like I do. [/quote] You are the cancer that is killing LoL. [/quote] Well excuse me if I'm not the absolute perfect support. I actually want people to think instead of mindless clicking and not paying attention. I have had people tell me "stop attacking, you're stealing my CS"... I had about 2... I was Sona. You're also assuming I go out of my way to CS. Nope. I just last hit with my auto-attacks unless my AD carry is missing. I will however auto attack-minions to get them low enough for the AD carry to last hit as well as contest the last hit if I'm a ranged champ like Sona, Karma or, Janna. If they miss it, I probably got it. If they don't miss it, it works out. I'd rather have one of us get the CS than the minions. They can't buy a 15 min IE. Lastly, I worded my post wrong. This is why you are so buttfrusterated.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Lugignaf] I actually want people to think instead of mindless clicking and not paying attention. [/quote] Which is intentionally disrupting their play. If a bad AD player, such as myself, wanted to play AD, I likely wouldn't get all the cs as it is. If someone was doing that to me, I'd be absurdly angry. As AD, you have to get a balance between harass and cs, it's not like all you do is right click minions all game. As you worded it - "[i]trying[/i] to steal CS", would make your AD play worse, and give your team a lower chance to win. Just my two cents.[/quote]

[quote=Klausenheim][quote=Lugignaf] Doesn't matter. I'll just play passively. I play Maokai. The embodiment of passiveness. Once he gets to 5, he just clears caster minion waves and waits until they push to last hit. Play Shyvana? I can win most duels early level and now all I have to do is watch the map to know if you're coming for me. And the list goes on. it makes people like Shaco massively overpowered. You "wasted" your early ward to establish bush control? He now camps the hell out of your lane and you die over, and over, and over, and over. You never get farm ever again and your team perma-loses. I'd elaborate more but class is about to end and I have to leave. If you want to offer a rebuttal, I will answer it when I can. [/quote] Certainly not a rebuttal - this is just an idea I had, not trying to force everyone to agree with me. What if you start with two wards, but the other wards aren't available until later in the game? Perhaps the 15 - 20 minute marks. I don't see how having wards, or not having wards, changes the fact that you play Mao super passively. It will always be safer to play passively. Even WITH a ward you can get ganked if you are pushed too far forward. That's just how the game works. Also, regarding the 0 CS support debate - that's not going anywhere unless major changes hit either the gold distribution model or the gold cost of support items. I.e. If it switches from last hits to proximity and super efficient items like Aegis get their costs massively increased.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Temzilla] Until we start getting durations of CC's scaling with AP/AD and w/e, we won't be seeing 0 cs go anywhere. [/quote] Given the number of non support champions with CCs, this as a general thing might just horribly break the game. (As an example, Malz's ult would likely end up very broken.) And if this sort of change were limited to supports (keeping in mind that since Riot makes the changes, this means that Riot gets to say who is and isn't a "support"), it would change the viability of champions and the metagame so much that I don't know if there's even any point speculating about it. More generally, Nick, no amount of changes to wards are going to change the 0 CS support. [i]No amount[/i]. Supports getting 0 CS (or nearly 0) happens for a reason entirely removed from wards. Wards don't even enter that equation. So changing around wards [i]will not have any effect on support gold incomes[/i]. It might change what supports spend their gold on, but not how much gold they have in the first place. Klausenheim's idea of permanent wards is interesting, but I believe it presents some big problems. In the early game, limiting the number of wards prevents every lane from having a ward, meaning that some lanes are going to be easy to gank for the enemy jungler. (The enemy jungler will also know which lanes are easy to gank, by watching which lanes took the limited wards.) This, like many other suggestions, is going to promote extremely passive play in non-warded lanes, as they want to avoid ganks. It will also prevent some ward locations, such as the two bushes in top and bottom lanes, from ever being used, because a ward there would be "wasted". This will change the play style in the laning phase of the game, as it will always be safe to stand in the bushes, rather than the enemies having the option of putting wards in them. More generally, some ward locations are stronger than others, and limiting the number of wards in the game will mean that weaker ward locations will go unused. Permanent wards would also be stronger in some lanes than in others. For blue team, for instance, warding dragon is an extremely smart play. The only two ways that the enemy jungler can enter lane are from up the river, where he has to pass by dragon, or from further up the lane, which is nearly impossible to ward anyways; and, rather obviously, dragon is now warded. For purple, a dragon ward is not as powerful during the laning phase, because the blue jungler also has a jungle entrance from the river further down, out of sight of that ward. So purple, for lane safety, has to ward the river bush in lane, while blue gets to ward dragon for lane safety. This isn't really balanced if wards are limited. It's more balanced currently, because having a ward in the river bush doesn't mean not also having one at dragon.[/quote]

[quote=Klausenheim]Very true lifebaka. I had not taken into consideration the disparity in usefulness between blue and purple. Oh well, time to think of another solution :).[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Hmm, you could also remove the passive gold gain(together with mastery and runes) and for that make items cheaper(and lower the base gold, of course), would also make 0 cs useless.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=NicknameMy] Hmm, you could also remove the passive gold gain(together with mastery and runes) and for that make items cheaper(and lower the base gold, of course), would also make 0 cs useless. [/quote] No. Just no. That is either a direct nerf to bottom lane as a whole, including the AD carry in the current meta, rather than just supports, or a complete gutting of the support role as to make it [u][b][i]USE-FUCKING-LESS[/i][/b][/u] after part way into the laning phase of the game. Supports would become little more than free kills for the enemy team before 10:00 on the clock. So no. No way. Not at all. Not ever. Nick, you can't just make major changes like this without thinking them through. I've barely thought through the consequences of this (it'd probably also kill all slow, non-ganking junglers as well, for instance), but I can already tell you haven't. This is not a good suggestion. It would require a complete rework of the entire game in order to be balanced. Things completely unrelated to it (TF's passive, the passive on Ashe's E) would need to be reworked, because the power of certain things is partially based upon passive gold gain. On a different note, I still do not understand why you want to eliminate 0 CS supports. Yes, I heard you say that Riot said they wanted to. I didn't see you actually point to where, though. So please pick one: advance an argument as to why it would benefit the game to eliminate 0 CS supports; point to [i]exactly[/i] where Riot said they wanted to eliminate 0 CS supports, and why they want to do so; or shut up.[/quote]

[quote=deathalo44][[Wriggle's Lanturn]] is OP. I never met any player who disliked it so much even if they never ever jungle yet ._. They should increase the cooldown to 240 seconds? Give or take. Perma ward is annoying, and buying invis ward to counter it doesn't benefit you much (You lose 25 gold, your opponent places one later, after yours expire)[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=deathalo44] [[Wriggle's Lanturn]] is OP. I never met any player who disliked it so much even if they never ever jungle yet ._. They should increase the cooldown to 240 seconds? Give or take. Perma ward is annoying, and buying invis ward to counter it doesn't benefit you much (You lose 25 gold, your opponent places one later, after yours expire) [/quote] No, [[Vision Ward]]s are really worth it if you want to have control over the sight in an area. If your opponents have placed a ward in an area, a Vision Ward does two very important things. First, it lets you destroy their ward, giving you 25 gold. This means that the ability to see invisible things only cost a total of 25 gold. If you drop that Vision Ward very soon after they dropped their original Sight Ward, your opponents are also out the 75 gold cost of their ward, resulting in a net gain of 50 gold value for your team. Second, it prevents them from warding that area again without spending the extra money for a Vision Ward of their own. This means they [i]will not have vision of that area[/i] for at least a while, and likely for the full duration of your Vision Ward. Even if you do not destroy an enemy ward with your Vision Ward, knowledge that the enemy does not have vision in an area can be worth well more than the 50 extra gold it costs to purchase the Vision Ward over a Sight Ward. Also, keep in mind that the value of the active on [[Wriggle's Lantern]] is inversely related to the number of wards people on your team are buying. It's only one extra ward, which isn't worth as much when the team already has five to ten on the map at any given point. In general, the value of the active Wriggle's decreases as one rises in ELO and people other than the support actually buy more than a couple of wards all game.[/quote]