OP NERF NAO!!1

[quote=Trojan995][quote=JunSupport] [quote=Trojan995] everyone who thinks Vayne isn't OP: She's good early, mid, late game. She's good when fed, when not fed, when 1v1 [color=yellow]or in a team fight[/color]. She has [color=yellow]CC[/color], [color=yellow]damage[/color], true damage, attack damage, [color=yellow]more damage[/color], mobility, [color=yellow]escapability[/color], [color=yellow]everything.[/color] [/quote] The quoted I fonted in yellow are circumstantial, redundant, or entirely false. Bad argument. What you're left with is: [list] [*] Strong early game harass - Mana cost nerfed a bit [*] Late game scaling - Balanced [*] True damage [u]that procs every 3 shots/hits[/u] - Mathematically balanced [*] Attack damage - What ranged AD champion doesn't have this?! - Balanced [*] Mobility - That's her thing - Balanced due to only working in combat. [/list] Vayne is really strong [u]relative to other champions[/u] at best. She's not OP. Just really good. Tanky DPS, Melee, and Tanks get creamed by Vayne, but she is hard countered by Nukes who can stun and burst, and Anti-carries who can out 1v1 her. [/quote] The problem is she has so much damage compared to her utility. Corki has pure damage and high escapability, but his utility is kind of lacking. Ashe has incredible utility in every skill she has, but her escape is limited to kiting, and her damage is only augmented by volley (which really isn't OP). Vayne has both of these things, and isn't limited by either of these champions' limiting factors.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Trojan995: Arguments about outdated Champions being UP don't apply to new champions. And you don't seem to acknowledge the fact that Vayne is easily taken out if focused. If not packing Flash, tumble travels about 400~500 in distance, which is hardly an escape, and she loses her passive MS boost when running away from enemies. [list] [*] Ashe can initiate from long distances, and offer a reveal which lets her position better before head. [*] Corki's escape is actually an argument for why he's BETTER then Vayne. This is what makes him on par. [/list] It's a matter of different play styles. Ezreal has poking power, Ashe has globals and map awareness, Corki has distance control with his skill shots and valkyrie, Caitlyn has her range, Vayne has her extreme mobility. I'd name the others, but they don't have as specific a theme aside from just being solid carries. All I see here is sour grapes about Vayne being more interactive.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=JunSupport] @Trojan995: Arguments about outdated Champions being UP don't apply to new champions. And you don't seem to acknowledge the fact that Vayne is easily taken out if focused. If not packing Flash, tumble travels about 400~500 in distance, which is hardly an escape, and she loses her passive MS boost when running away from enemies. [list] [*] Ashe can initiate from long distances, and offer a reveal which lets her position better before head. [*] Corki's escape is actually an argument for why he's BETTER then Vayne. This is what makes him on par. [/list] It's a matter of different play styles. Ezreal has poking power, Ashe has globals and map awareness, Corki has distance control with his skill shots and valkyrie, Caitlyn has her range, Vayne has her extreme mobility. I'd name the others, but they don't have as specific a theme aside from just being solid carries. All I see here is sour grapes about Vayne being more interactive. [/quote] Vayne is not easily taken out if focused; activate ult, tumble away while stealthed, she's basically got a dash-vlad pool. It lasts for 12 seconds too, which is incredibly long, and gives her the opportunity to dash away at a moment's notice and come back for more. So it's actually at least on par with corki's valkyrie. Not to mention the fact that you can condemn the closest champion away. It's also on a 2 second cooldown at max rank, which is basically a nidalee pounce everywhere. So, in short, she can chase with passive + tumble, she can get away with condemn + tumble. Condemn is massive burst damage too; on Chaox' vayne guide, he said he can get up to 500 damage burst with her ultimate, which is as much as a Tristana buster shot. So, her ultimate makes her impossible to run away from (so much move speed), impossible to chase (dash with invisibility + condemn), impossible to fight 1v1 (stealth, burst condemn + admittedly gimmicky CC), and impossible to fight as a team (stealth + mobility). She has everything in one package. The ONLY carry I'd ever take over her anymore is Ashe, because of her ultimate. Every other champion pales in comparison, honestly.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]Essentialy in everyone's eyes this is the problem with vayne. 1. Yes she is squishy, but you have to catch her. Which any good vayne will not let you if they can help it. They know CC= unable to do anything, and that leads to death. Now in teamfights a vayne will be smart. She knows you will try to CC her 1st, so she pops her ult and tumbles to repostion herself then strikes one of your teammates down quickly. But in your eyes as soon as she was gone you decided to attack someone else. By the time you realize she is back she may have already killed someone, and so if you try to CC her now. She will just tumble and hide. 2. Tumble+ult and condemn give her two decent escape skills. Once again adding to her mobillity and making her that much harder to CC. 3. She is a pretty good assassin, almost too good. Due to her true damage and the fact her ult adds damage she can do alot of damage real fast. I've seen people die on the third shot. Because the first two just do so much damage that there is no way they can survive on the burst. Heck I was irelia and vayne could 6 shot me. What can I do stack armor? Yeah, but that doesn't stop the true damage, or what if she gets a madred's? Edit: Basically Vayne is like an assassin verison of Nidalee. Strong throughout the game.[/quote]

[quote=Vetle158][quote]True damage is never negated nor lowered by any shield, item, skill, or passive effect.[/quote] Hmm what about tenacity? in masteries i mean. the 21 point in defence. that reduces true dmg. And 20 stacks on levithan doesnt that also reduce true dmg?. and you sure poppy's passive doesnt? baron reduces true dmg. Well ym point is it would be wrong to say that NOTHING reduces true dmg. as tenacity(in masteries as usual) is a ''passive effect'' - Vetle158[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Vetle158] And 20 stacks on levithan doesnt that also reduce true dmg?. [/quote] It used to because it was bugged. Doesn't anymore. T_T[/quote]

[quote=orochinagi]Regarding globals i'll have to bring up this: [img=http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5016/solongsogood.jpg] 15 minute no team got in contact with each other... they were holed up in their base trembling in fear of a possible backdoor from winter (TF)... Globals are OP... and [b] backdooring causes traumas[/b] :P[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]If your afraid of globals...pack teleport. I mean come on guys its not that hard, or hey maybe you could keep those minions away from your towers.[/quote]

[quote=Riggsinator]Flash is all that I want to see nerfed. Combined with ghost. You'll never kill a sona or anyone that just has to faceroll their keyboard without actually getting near the fight.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed][quote=Riggsinator] Flash is all that I want to see nerfed. Combined with ghost. You'll never kill a sona or anyone that just has to faceroll their keyboard without actually getting near the fight. [/quote] If Sona or any mage is anywhere near the fight....its over. They won't have it all the time or close the distance and stun or silence them. Because if they are not anywhere near the fight then as a mage or ranged they are doing their job right.[/quote]