TF's Gate range - Morello reveals the number!

[quote=Rudmed][quote=Queso] I think he will be fine if the range can reach top and bot from mid. Really global teleport tf is just not fun to play against, and nearly all of them carry summoner spell teleport as well, not a single champion can compete with that sort of mobility. I only got to play him once in ranked and I won quite easily. You don't need global range to position yourself correctly, now your split pushing ability has just been nerfed a little. [/quote] Yeah lets force TF to go mid. Well as Crazy Smurf has said he does not stand up to some of the other mids. Oh Queso we don't need our ult to postion? Lets think about this, Cait has a nice range, and is ripping your team apart. She knows you can kills her, but she will push herself out of the way in order to get away, and kite you. So you ult in to the point where she has no escape, and take her out. Now lets say you walk into the teamfight, Cait sees you with a gold card, and pushes herself out of the way. Now then with your 510 range? How are you suppose to kill Cait, who will blast you while you struggle to get in range. Well, you are at a disadvantage. Two champions with teleport can keep up with TF who has teleport mobility.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=Rudmed] This is Riot's picture. Q. TF= Top Ban why? A: [color=#ffff00]Global teleportation acts like stealth. It pubstomps too hard with no counter and forces experienced players to turret hug too much. When no mistakes are made by the TF player, Gate becomes a broken still that overwhelms opponents.[/color] Q: Is there a solution for said problem? A: [color=#ffff00]Teleport has too long a cooldown to compete with Destiny, and taking it is sacrificing a summoner spell, which is costly and similar in the impact stealth has on the game. The only counter is to hope TF makes a mistake.[/color] Q: How to fix Champion. A: [color=#ffff00]For starters, reduce the global range. It's too much map-wide pressure while also giving priceless enemy position information. After we have that settled, we can see what else is truly needed on the champion.[/color] Q: Compenstatory Buffs? A: [color=#ffff00]Destiny will still have it's reveal and AP TF is still strong in lane. We'll watch the situation unfold before considering buffs.[/color] Q: Will it kill the champion? A: [color=#ffff00]Of course not. TF can still TP fairly far. This will however, stop a lot of backdooring, and easy kills.[/color] [/quote] Fixed beautifully.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]Now Jun if you allow me to make my rebuttal. 1. Destiny is not like stealth. Why? Simply because you got this big red eye over your head, and a stack of cards may appear near you. Oh TF is right there. Also pretty sure you can't hid in a bush when warping in, some cards will stick out. Plus turret hugging? That allows you to poke your foe under the safety of the turret, and usually last hit without worry of being harassed. 2. You've got a point. 3. He will still be able to put pressure early game they did not change that, what they wanted to change was the late-game backdooring. It will probaly always give priceless information. If he is mia, then that pressure will always apply they have failed to change that. 4. Ap TF is strong in the lane, but of course that depends on how dumb your foe is. If they let you land gold cards, and your burst then they are dumb. Now then, if they are smart they will never ever let you get close, and stay a distance that it is easy to dodge wild cards. 5. Backdooring...maybe. Easy kills, yeah right. Why do you think easy kills exist? Players make stupid decisions, and that leads to consquences such as making them an easy kill. Thus TF reminds them not to do it again, because he will be there. It almost makes him a helpful killer no? Make the opponet learn from their mistake and get better? So nerfing destiny's range may seem like an answer? Though how often do players make mistakes? When they get cocky, or bloodthirsty. That leads them to towerdiving, which then in turn leads TF to being there to pick up the kills. All in all is it TF's ult causing the problems? Or is it foolish players making stupid decisions, and TF taking advantage of such mistakes? The world may never know.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@ Number 1 You're wrong. If used correctly it operates just like stealth, because you can tp within 2 seconds and force noobs to pay for being only being minimally overextended. That destiny effect is NOT enough warning. Even the most experienced players have fallen prey to Twisted Fate. Also, it is very easy to harass a person under their tower with various champions. TF being one of them. The easiest time to harass if when a person is trying to last hit. @ Number 2 Yay @ Number 3 Wrong again. I've exchanged posts with Riot on the actual LoL forums. My comparison to stealth is from Xypherous and Morello's view of global teleport. It's exactly like stealth to them, but with more utility because Teleport isn't restricted to what stealth does. @ Number 4 You're talking in half-truths now. A smarter TF can land Wild Cards even on players who are doing their best to dodge. Some champions are also not as good match ups against TF that make it easy for him to land gold cards and zone them out. If you're zoned out, you're not dumb, but you can't farm. Lose-lose situation. What you're describing of TF is a balanced champion, not an underpowered one. @ Number 5 Refer to the points I make about stealth. Used correctly, Twisted Fate pubstomps in low Elo (easy kills), or destroys enemies for the slightest mistake in high ELO (easy kills) [color=yellow]Your view of Twisted Fate is limited to enemies being dumb.[/color] A smart Twisted Fate destroys your entire argument just like how he breaks the game when used by a good player on a good team comp.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]1. That is why we have summoner spells such as Flash, or ghost perhaps. Remember TF's super short range, yeah. So if they flash or ghost away before TF finishes his warp in they are probaly home-free, unless that TF has Flash. While it is true that Tf can harass easily, but why would he still be there after a gank unless they can push down the tower. 3. You kinda just proved my point. He will always apply that pressure early game even with the nerfs if he is mid. Once again I point out what if he is mia? Smart players will run calulations, and say okay I don't see him, he hasn't used his ult in a while, so it would be better to hug the tower. Now if he is in top lane, then bottom lane is safe, but what about mid? That pressure will never go away, because some people don't know how long 5500 range is. 4. Care to name a few? I'm curious. Because the opposite is true of that statement. 5. ELO huh either one? Isn't he the number 1 ban right now, so bringing elo in this is somewhat irrelvant. Now if we are talking about normal games, where people have fun, or screw around then yes you can bring the fact he can punish mistakes for either elo. Once again we have escape spells for a reason. Also your build, you are kinda screwed if they flash or ghost away from you no? A smart Twisted Fate may destory that agruement, Like a smart Akali will take out problmatic casters, or a smart Xin Zhao, or Twitch. Twisted Fate is not a unqiue case my friend many people who are good with certain champions can do a whole lot of damage. Does that mean that we should nerf those champions because someone good is aboustely wrecking everyone with them? No, lets look at other cases such as a bad twitch, a bad xin zhao etc.[/quote]

[quote=Dante Rebellion]why dont they fucking fix rally instead of this shit... TF can be countered with teleport, or even pantheon. kthx.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Rudmed: @ 1 Your argument is wrong. Summoner Spells don't make a good solution. (Except when it comes to Dr. Mundo and ignite...) Like Teleport, Flash is off cooldown less frequently then Destiny. @ 3 [b]Your original statement suggests that the early game pressure stays the same.[/b] His pressure early game will be weakened by this change, on top of the inability to splitpush or backdoor effectively. If someone calls MIA on TF, they know to back off. But if someone just says TF is level6, they know it'll take more time for TF to get prepared to gank. Most (current) TFs could recall after hitting 6 and land an easy gank with full health and mana, or at least force enemies to hug their turret. Now, allies can be assured that if someone says TF hit 6, he just hit 6 while still taking lane harass and will have to recall and walk a distance before ganking, or gank with depleted resources. Unless he's packing teleport, and the enemy has wards in place. But that in itself comes at a cost to TF as well, and can be considered tentative. @ 4 Me. And any number of high ELO TF players count. Just pick one and they count. Skill shots cannot be universally dodged just because you practice dodging them. They can be landed at a decent rate even on people who are pacing to evade, because skill shots are made to be easy to use. It's not rocket science. If you think otherwise, you must be playing against/with some really bad TFs who have little-to-no experience. @ 5 Your original statement was a self-righteous "I teach noobs to not do THIS" argument. I referred to stealth and pointed how Gate is similar to Stealth in both low and high ELO, because people have defended stealth in the exact same way. ("Just buy oracles/wards," "It's just noobs that overextended," etc etc) Basically: NO. It does not make you a "helpful killer" (your words). That's a totally backwards blame-the-victim statement. Those "mistakes" you refer to, encompasses behavior Riot likes. Combat. Aggressive play. There is a line between noobish overextending and aggressive play. Twisted Fate's Gate range encompasses both of these. The difference? Noobish overextending Scenario 1: You're the solo. You're go on the attack and tower dive for the kill. For some god-forsaken reason, you stay to farm a few creeps. Ally says: Mid mia. You back off. You recall just in time to see the enemy carry show up in top lane to clear the minion waves. Noobish Scenario 2: You're the solo. You're go on the attack and tower dive for the kill. For some god-forsaken reason, you stay to farm a few creeps. Ally says: Mid mia (TF) You start to back off, boom Destiny is activated, Twisted Fate is behind you with full health and mana. There's no way you can win. You die. New range scenario - You have more time to run. Or, TF is not at fully health, and you might stand a chance to defend yourself. Aggressive Scenario 1: You win a team fight early game, but don't catch the enemy carry who flees back to base. 15 seconds later, you see an enemy squishy caster under the turret, and you + 2 allies dive for it. Enemy carry makes it back to save the turret and maaaaybe net one kill, but Caster is dead. Riot likes this. It punishes the caster for standing alone against 1v3 at a turret. You got some gold, and the game is progressing in a decisive manner. Aggressive Scenario 2: You win a team fight early game, but don't catch the enemy Twisted Fate, who flees back to base. 15 seconds later, you see an enemy squishy under the turret, and you + 2 allies dive for it. Twisted Fate pops in. Caster is saved, you lose 1~2 people in the turret dive. Riot does like this. You made good call to gank, and got punished for it by an enemy champion who was over 9000 distance away. Scenario 2b: Same scenario, except you're a veteran and decide against attacking the caster squishy. Riot does not like this. TF's very presence caused you play more defensively (even if you were ahead in the game), because of his global ultimate. It slows down the game, the activities are less enjoyable as it becomes a waiting game. New range scenario - TF will show up 5~10 seconds earlier then any other carry (depends on the lane), but you'll still probably get the kill on the caster because he shows up 5~10 seconds later then if he had a global teleport. That time lag is important. Once people become more aware, they will be less afraid of TF because they know he'll need more time or end up overextending. Gate won't be as "god like" in utility, and allow people to play more normally as if against any other carry. Note: When I say "any other carry", I do not mean he's not different. Just that the degree to which you have to micro-manage against him will be closer to other carries. You don't have to get paranoid about TF always using Gate to show up the moment you see a chance to get a kill.[/quote]

[quote=Keels]Jun seems to know very well what riot's way of thinking on these choices are. I understand now that it's a slight nerf, and honestly I hate twisted fate. You're pushing a lane with a friend early game, you've been battering the enemy pretty well, all is good. All of a sudden a TF teleports directly behind you from spawn, and all of a sudden you have almost no chance of escape. So he gets fed, from absolutely no error in play by you. You are just pushing a lane, and are underleveled and can't defend yourself. That's just aggressive play. I'm not going to sit back and not push because TF is looming, because that's retarded. I'm going to push. I'm just upset that TF in TT is still going to, in essence, be exactly the same, except a little closer range(admittedly making it easier to escape) -_- judging by the range on this. Someone please enlighten me, is [[destiny]] still global in 3v3? I absolutely hate how twisted fate can pick us off in a normally even fight. I feel he's really a cheap champ, and getting killed no matter where you are is anti-fun to me.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Keels: I never said pushing a lane isn't an error. In one of my scenarios, I say you commit to a fight and tower dive. But pushing a lane in general is bad. It makes you easy prey to a jungler gank, let alone to TF who isn't in every game. But everything else you've said it more or less in line with TF being an issue. And, 5500 probably covers a good half of Twisted Treeline at least. I'm not really sure, since I don't play there often. Plus, I think TF is crap on that map if you play the right champions. Tanky DPS + Hard CC are kingly in TT. Twisted Fate is naturally bad against tanky champions. If you stun and focus him, he's dead and your bulky will allow you to live through any enemy retaliation. Nocturne's a much better champion on TT if you like Twisted Fate. Much better survivability, and his ultimate is essentially the same given the size.[/quote]

[quote=Queso][quote=Rudmed] [quote=Queso] I think he will be fine if the range can reach top and bot from mid. Really global teleport tf is just not fun to play against, and nearly all of them carry summoner spell teleport as well, not a single champion can compete with that sort of mobility. I only got to play him once in ranked and I won quite easily. You don't need global range to position yourself correctly, now your split pushing ability has just been nerfed a little. [/quote] Yeah lets force TF to go mid. Well as Crazy Smurf has said he does not stand up to some of the other mids. Oh Queso we don't need our ult to postion? Lets think about this, Cait has a nice range, and is ripping your team apart. She knows you can kills her, but she will push herself out of the way in order to get away, and kite you. So you ult in to the point where she has no escape, and take her out. Now lets say you walk into the teamfight, Cait sees you with a gold card, and pushes herself out of the way. Now then with your 510 range? How are you suppose to kill Cait, who will blast you while you struggle to get in range. Well, you are at a disadvantage. Two champions with teleport can keep up with TF who has teleport mobility. [/quote] Note: I said you don't need a "Global" ult to position yourself, with the nerf you can still position yourself. It simply forces you to be at least one lane away from the fight, rather than having the luxury of being wherever the hell you want. If you can hit with your Wild Cards, then you should be okay mid as most people play more passive after watching a chunk of their life bar disappear. If you're actually in a team-fight, from what I understood the range is plenty enough to put yourself in position to stun that cait and kill her, no different than before with the very important distinction that you can't be pushing down the top towers and ult into a fight in the bottom lane. The god-like pushing power of tf is just that, god-like and hence is being nerfed.[/quote]