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Shaco - E or Q?

Creator: Kurt_Ottman
February 9, 2012 4:24am

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44 posts page 1 of 5 Forums » Build & Guide Discussion » Shaco - E or Q?
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Kurt_Ottman » February 9, 2012 4:24am | Report
So, I've been thinking for a while, after seeing the Shaco champion spotlight, why does the current top-build on Mobafire suggest you take E first instead of Q, while the spotlight gives a very logical reason to take Q first?

Lets look at the two abilities:

Deceive is a flash that scales with AD, doing a percentage of your total AD in damage. In level 5, the mana cost of deceive is also lowered to 50, instead of the 90 mana at level 1.

Two-Shiv Poison is a ranged ability that scales with AP and AD, slows both passively and when you activate it, and gives a miss-chance to minions. The cost is also raised to 70 from the 50 mana at level 1.

So here's the thing:
  • - You need mana early. Two-Shiv Poison costs more with each level, while Deceive costs less.
  • - Beyond the first level of Two-Shiv Poison slow, the 4 next levels are only half as effective put together.
  • - Damage-wise, Deceive gives 220% attack damage at level 5, say if you got like 100 AD (you're likely to have more though), you would deal 220 crit damage, not counting bonuses from masteries, runes or Infinity Edge. Counting those, you would deal tremendous damage.
  • Also, if you're not going hybrid or full out AP, most of the damage from Two-Shiv Poison will be wasted, as it scales 1.0 with AP, and only 0.5 with AD (which is more than Deceive only at level 1.

    The "bonus damage" from Deceive is a crit, and is affected by crit damage runes, masteries and items, contrary to popular belief. This has been tested methodically, and taking Crit Damage quints instead of Armor Pen will let you deal more damage on your crits all game than Armor pen would give you. (If you don't believe me, visit this link, see Guinsoo's post, it's number 3.)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Darcurse » February 9, 2012 12:51pm | Report
Shaco = no laner.
No laner = Jungler.
Jungler = ganking power.
ganking power = CC.
CC = Two-Shiv Poison.


Sry, that's how it works.
Deceive is only needed to get close, therefore it works quite well without maxing it first.
Two-Shiv and maybe a well placed lvl 1 JitB.

And I dunno, since I dont rly play Shaco, but isnt an early Sheen quite mandatory on many builts anyway?

But you're right:
Gettting a Shaco to play a good lane with CrD runes will be quiet the annoyance for the enemy.
If s1 can be played with CrD it can only be Shaco, dunno IF it's viable in the end, though.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by animorte » February 9, 2012 1:10pm | Report
I can play a good lane Shaco and if I remember correctly, I always max Two-Shiv first.

The reason people max Q first is because it does a ****ton of damage (without needing many items. also, mana cost lowers at each level up where E increases in mana cost) and his basic attacks will slow the target due to the passive on Two-Shiv anyway. Deceive brings him close enough to use that. If the enemy decides to Flash, Two-Shiv and then catch up.

Either way works just as well as the other.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Zell » February 9, 2012 3:37pm | Report
Darcurse wrote:

No laner = Jungler.


Soviet Russia Shyvana disapproves of this.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Booshido » February 9, 2012 4:51pm | Report
two shiv max,

but Q is WAY more fun to max.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Darcurse » February 9, 2012 6:29pm | Report
Zell wrote:



Soviet Russia Shyvana disapproves of this.



Excluding things like Bruiser and such, but that's just a bored laner anyway.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Kurt_Ottman » February 9, 2012 10:23pm | Report
Well, I'd still recommend people getting Deceive first, because it will give you a set of low-mana cost abilities early game, which is when you need it the most. And if you play it right, you shouldn't need more than 20% slow + red buff to catch up to the enemy :)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Lugignaf » February 9, 2012 10:48pm | Report
Honestly, it depends. If you're AD, and you have at least twice as much compared to AP, it's worth leveling Two-shiv first.

It's all a matter of, how am I dealing my damage. If it's auto-attacks and you have a lot, and I mean a lot, of AD, sure, take deceive. It'll boost your damage and, you need the crit bonus it's giving you. Otherwise, you're just hitting weaker because your crits only do 40% of what they're supposed to. Or so it looks like from the tooltip.

EDIT: Just confirmed it. I was confused as I don't play Shaco much.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Kurt_Ottman » February 10, 2012 3:44am | Report
You're wrong, the ability scales with AD, and leveling it up will make each AD stronger, as at level 5, Deceive will deal 120% crit damage/bonus damage (not counting crit damage masteries or runes).

The 40% is at level 1, and you only want Deceive at level 1 for the utility, the damage comes first when you level it up and get some AD items :)

Based on these facts, we can say that at level 1, Deceive has a 0.4 AD scaling, but at level 5, it has 1.2 AD scaling, which is quite the difference.

Now, what scaling did Two-Shiv Poison have? 0.5, was that it? And it doesn't get better with levels, so not leveling Deceive first will waste alot of AD power, if you catch my drift, since at level 5, with 100 bonus AD, you would get 120 extra damage from Deceive, while Two-Shiv Poison would give you 50 extra damage.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by xIchi » February 10, 2012 7:22am | Report
Let's see. What do you use more often, and what endangers you the most?
For jungling, when you have a blue anyway, E is better to spam the **** out of the jungle.
Then when you use Q and max it first, your only Dmgoutput will be Q and it will endanger you since you have to get close to the enemy.


And in theory maxing Q seems nice, but actually... did you ever tested it?
Tested it with full crit damage runepage aswell with arpen/flat ad. And without E you can not last hit running enemis. You strike with Q and attack him to death, he uses its escape, and you think: NP GONNA KILL HIM WITH TWO SHIV
PEW- - - - -> no dmg. <- ****<.<
Like this...
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