My previous post might not have started off properly as I started off with my personal issue instead of prioritizing what I think would be the better solution for everyone. I do want to emphasize that it is highly relevant to add continuity with a system like the point sink Psi mentioned, granting access to both Mobafire and League rewards. Nothing is worse than putting many hours of work into something you are not part of to then get no reward in return.
Yeah I know that was the main goal, but considering previous feedback threads where the decline of community was regularly brought up, it seems to me that the admins wanted to resolve the issue together with the guide problem, bringing the guide community back to life. That part of this solution has proven to work fantastically and that is a job well done. What I would still like to see though is more new names coming back more often that try to contribute to the website or the community in some way.
Just now I just was looking through the high rankings of the raffle and I noticed that at the moment the first page is filled with mostly people that pump out comments or guides. It might be interesting to look into the possibility of checking the contributions of the user, to make sure that the good examples (such as Lasoor and Jeffnguns) do not get competed by people that do a slack job; such as the issue lasoor brought up with the update button and the mass production of one liners that add nothing but a generic compliment towards the author.
Quoted:
I think, or thought, that this was the whole point of the raffle; to reward guide makers, not people who participate in the community. When they added rep that changed a little bit (though lots of guide's authors get rep) but I still consider it to be an incentive for people to create, update and critique other peoples's guides.
Just now I just was looking through the high rankings of the raffle and I noticed that at the moment the first page is filled with mostly people that pump out comments or guides. It might be interesting to look into the possibility of checking the contributions of the user, to make sure that the good examples (such as Lasoor and Jeffnguns) do not get competed by people that do a slack job; such as the issue lasoor brought up with the update button and the mass production of one liners that add nothing but a generic compliment towards the author.
Change is gooooood
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Meiyjhe wrote:
mass production of one liners that add nothing but a generic compliment towards the author.
Could just remove the 2 pt reward for short guide comments keep the reward for lengthy comments if you really want to I guess.
Meiyjhe wrote:
mass production of one liners that add nothing but a generic compliment towards the author.
Just to clear this up, there's nothing wrong with simple comments like this, so long as they're genuinely unique. If a user comments on a guide saying, "Hey, I read your guide and it really helped me get into jungling, thank you!" that's a fine comment. You don't need to go into any crazy detail or add criticism for it to be considered valid activity.
What's not fine is, "Wow, what a great guide, I am now inspired to become a [champion name] main and become a great player like you nice guide thank you." copy-pasted 30 times to different guides. If we pull a winner that's clearly spamming for tickets, they'll be disqualified.
Obviously you can report users that do stuff like this (since it's spam), but overall I wouldn't worry about cheaters winning the raffle.
Thanks for your input so far guys, keep the feedback coming!
For those of you who like the "point sinks" idea, do you have any ideas or preferences of what kind of prizes you'd like to be able to "buy" with your points?
Thanks to Lugignaf for the sig!
Unfortunately, it is very easy to become discouraged with the raffle system. I will admit that I was super excited the first month and spent maybe hours reviewing other guides and helping out new guide authors and doing whatever I could to be helpful and gain points.
It burnt me out, especially as I didn't get a prize. And then I watched who did get prizes. Some of the prize winners had something like 11 comments total in their profile. And I thought, "Well, this is fair." And of course, it was fair in the sense that the raffle is completely randomised, so everyone has a chance of winning.
I'm a pretty motivated person. When I want to do something I can spend hours on it, easy. I can go back to it time and time again. There's no cap on being helpful, being friendly, enjoying the community. But while the raffle system prompted me to do this in the first month, after that it served as a reminder of how little I had done compared to other people. Obviously any sort of leaderboard or system that tracks contributions will compare you to other people doing the same thing. But instead of bolstering me to do better, get a better score, beat the current leader, I felt pressured into doing so and upset at myself when I didn't.
As a teacher in the last few weeks of the term, I have been bogged down with reporting, assessment and end-of-term student behaviours. I haven't played League in maybe two weeks. There's simply no time to devote to a system that seems to reward everyone else other than the people who are consistently at 300+ points (ie Vapora).
I already mentioned some of these ideas in previous threads, but I'll go again:
> Writing blogs, commenting in the forums and editing the database/wiki should gain points. Like I said previously, some people have no interest in guide writing or commenting on guides and yet they can be just as helpful by doing other things on the site. I understand the initial reason for just rewarding guide authors - you wanted more new guides, more interactions on guides and updated guides. Cool. But look at how DEAD the forums are. The forums used to be THRIVING. True, Discord may have cut discussion down. In fact, if it is Discord where things are happening, is there a way to implement Discord into the forums/replace the forums? Just an idea.
> Flooding the site with subpar builds and rushed guides is not a winning solution. Sure, it may seem like things have increased, but not with quality content. It shouldn't be worth so much to publish a new guide. The focus should be shifted to commenting on guides, especially new guides. 2 points to comment on a guide? It takes EFFORT to read a guide and think of something to say. It should be worth WAY MORE. Consider, I could write a 25 character comment on 8 guides (literally variations of this "Nice work on your guide!!") which requires next to no effort, or I could spend time reading a guide, thinking of two or three things and posting "Hi! Thanks for writing about Shaco mid lane. I've been looking for a guide like this. I am surprised you take Doran's Blade as your first item. Also, how does Ionian Boots fit his kit? Is it the CDR??" (200 characters). OR I could post something along the lines of 500 characters or 900 characters or 1500 characters, but why bother? I only need 200 characters to get the max points of 5. Perhaps there should be a multiplier based on how many characters you post.
> Great Scores. It's nice to recognise these scores, but you're putting emphasis on only being the best. And there's no way for many guide authors to get there. There's nothing encouraging voting. Like Nameless said, it's almost impossible for new guides to get votes, so how would they ever get great scores?
> There's nothing stopping people from farming points on multiple random guides by just clicking republish. Make it harder for people to game the system. Require 10%, 5%, 3% of the guide contents to be altered before PUBLISH becomes an option.
> Maybe ensure that someone in the top 10 of the leaderboard is guaranteed a prize.
> Consider an interest system. Where your points accumulate over the time of a month. If you get 1 point and do nothing else, at the end of the month you may have 13 points or something due to the interest system. This gives people a feeling of progress, even if they haven't had a chance to post something in a few days, their points are still growing.
> If you want to turn MobaFire game-like, consider a leveling system in general, where you can unlock levels by doing things around the site and even fulfilling quests. There's nothing stopping you guys from making MobaFire a FUN place to be. Giving daily or weekly challenges.
> Prizes from raffles should be League related. Themes are fine, but keep it simple. x amount of RP OR the skin/champion most recently released. Sending physical merchandise must be expensive and it doesn't make sense to me why you'd choose to do that.
> Some people on the Leaderboard are literally there because they've voted over 100 times on the Community Tier List. What. I could go and do that now for every champion and farm it.
Anyway, that's enough for me about raffles.
In terms of news posts, I know they're there because they have to be in order to link to Riot etc. At the moment they draw nearly 0% of community engagement. Don't know how to fix it, but it seems useless at the moment.
It burnt me out, especially as I didn't get a prize. And then I watched who did get prizes. Some of the prize winners had something like 11 comments total in their profile. And I thought, "Well, this is fair." And of course, it was fair in the sense that the raffle is completely randomised, so everyone has a chance of winning.
I'm a pretty motivated person. When I want to do something I can spend hours on it, easy. I can go back to it time and time again. There's no cap on being helpful, being friendly, enjoying the community. But while the raffle system prompted me to do this in the first month, after that it served as a reminder of how little I had done compared to other people. Obviously any sort of leaderboard or system that tracks contributions will compare you to other people doing the same thing. But instead of bolstering me to do better, get a better score, beat the current leader, I felt pressured into doing so and upset at myself when I didn't.
As a teacher in the last few weeks of the term, I have been bogged down with reporting, assessment and end-of-term student behaviours. I haven't played League in maybe two weeks. There's simply no time to devote to a system that seems to reward everyone else other than the people who are consistently at 300+ points (ie Vapora).
I already mentioned some of these ideas in previous threads, but I'll go again:
> Writing blogs, commenting in the forums and editing the database/wiki should gain points. Like I said previously, some people have no interest in guide writing or commenting on guides and yet they can be just as helpful by doing other things on the site. I understand the initial reason for just rewarding guide authors - you wanted more new guides, more interactions on guides and updated guides. Cool. But look at how DEAD the forums are. The forums used to be THRIVING. True, Discord may have cut discussion down. In fact, if it is Discord where things are happening, is there a way to implement Discord into the forums/replace the forums? Just an idea.
> Flooding the site with subpar builds and rushed guides is not a winning solution. Sure, it may seem like things have increased, but not with quality content. It shouldn't be worth so much to publish a new guide. The focus should be shifted to commenting on guides, especially new guides. 2 points to comment on a guide? It takes EFFORT to read a guide and think of something to say. It should be worth WAY MORE. Consider, I could write a 25 character comment on 8 guides (literally variations of this "Nice work on your guide!!") which requires next to no effort, or I could spend time reading a guide, thinking of two or three things and posting "Hi! Thanks for writing about Shaco mid lane. I've been looking for a guide like this. I am surprised you take Doran's Blade as your first item. Also, how does Ionian Boots fit his kit? Is it the CDR??" (200 characters). OR I could post something along the lines of 500 characters or 900 characters or 1500 characters, but why bother? I only need 200 characters to get the max points of 5. Perhaps there should be a multiplier based on how many characters you post.
> Great Scores. It's nice to recognise these scores, but you're putting emphasis on only being the best. And there's no way for many guide authors to get there. There's nothing encouraging voting. Like Nameless said, it's almost impossible for new guides to get votes, so how would they ever get great scores?
> There's nothing stopping people from farming points on multiple random guides by just clicking republish. Make it harder for people to game the system. Require 10%, 5%, 3% of the guide contents to be altered before PUBLISH becomes an option.
> Maybe ensure that someone in the top 10 of the leaderboard is guaranteed a prize.
> Consider an interest system. Where your points accumulate over the time of a month. If you get 1 point and do nothing else, at the end of the month you may have 13 points or something due to the interest system. This gives people a feeling of progress, even if they haven't had a chance to post something in a few days, their points are still growing.
> If you want to turn MobaFire game-like, consider a leveling system in general, where you can unlock levels by doing things around the site and even fulfilling quests. There's nothing stopping you guys from making MobaFire a FUN place to be. Giving daily or weekly challenges.
> Prizes from raffles should be League related. Themes are fine, but keep it simple. x amount of RP OR the skin/champion most recently released. Sending physical merchandise must be expensive and it doesn't make sense to me why you'd choose to do that.
> Some people on the Leaderboard are literally there because they've voted over 100 times on the Community Tier List. What. I could go and do that now for every champion and farm it.
Anyway, that's enough for me about raffles.
In terms of news posts, I know they're there because they have to be in order to link to Riot etc. At the moment they draw nearly 0% of community engagement. Don't know how to fix it, but it seems useless at the moment.
Have you considered removing the leaderboard?
EDIT: To clarify, you're making a race out of something that was never intended to be one. You want to reward contributors to incite contribution. You should focus on doing just that. On another note, it's clear that the point assigner is utterly broken, work on that with all your might or you're going to end up losing people you want to keep.
To give an example, guide maintainers should be attributed for the amount of maintenance work they put in. When that publish button is pressed, award points relative to the amount of maintenance work done, maybe multiplied by a factor based on the guide score. (depending on what you think is exemplary MOBAFire behavior) (that said, you should reward first-time publishes of a full guide MUCH more, but that'll probably work out based on this system)
I also question the raffle system as is. It's usually unnecessary to reward someone multiple times in a year, it's better to reward evenly across the contributors. But your system does not reflect that. (IIRC some people already won twice, that's a serious issue)
I invite you to sit down and rank all MOBAFire members based on usefulness. If you can do that, and if you can create a fully automatic system that can execute this judgment based on the principles you've derived, you can probably close this site because I think you'll be set for life :P
But good luck trying to get a decent approximation.
EDIT: To clarify, you're making a race out of something that was never intended to be one. You want to reward contributors to incite contribution. You should focus on doing just that. On another note, it's clear that the point assigner is utterly broken, work on that with all your might or you're going to end up losing people you want to keep.
To give an example, guide maintainers should be attributed for the amount of maintenance work they put in. When that publish button is pressed, award points relative to the amount of maintenance work done, maybe multiplied by a factor based on the guide score. (depending on what you think is exemplary MOBAFire behavior) (that said, you should reward first-time publishes of a full guide MUCH more, but that'll probably work out based on this system)
I also question the raffle system as is. It's usually unnecessary to reward someone multiple times in a year, it's better to reward evenly across the contributors. But your system does not reflect that. (IIRC some people already won twice, that's a serious issue)
I invite you to sit down and rank all MOBAFire members based on usefulness. If you can do that, and if you can create a fully automatic system that can execute this judgment based on the principles you've derived, you can probably close this site because I think you'll be set for life :P
But good luck trying to get a decent approximation.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
its dumb how someone who takes 10 minutes out of their day to copy and paste a template comment has more of a chance to win over someone like me who (rarely, but still) answers threads or comments on guides with actual thought and tries to help the person to improve on a guide, or to better understand something within the game
⤠signature by Jovy â¤
Latest Legend wrote:
Have you considered removing the leaderboard?
EDIT: To clarify, you're making a race out of something that was never intended to be one. You want to reward contributors to incite contribution. You should focus on doing just that. On another note, it's clear that the point assigner is utterly broken, work on that with all your might or you're going to end up losing people you want to keep.
To give an example, guide maintainers should be attributed for the amount of maintenance work they put in. When that publish button is pressed, award points relative to the amount of maintenance work done, maybe multiplied by a factor based on the guide score. (depending on what you think is exemplary MOBAFire behavior) (that said, you should reward first-time publishes of a full guide MUCH more, but that'll probably work out based on this system)
I also question the raffle system as is. It's usually unnecessary to reward someone multiple times in a year, it's better to reward evenly across the contributors. But your system does not reflect that. (IIRC some people already won twice, that's a serious issue)
I invite you to sit down and rank all MOBAFire members based on usefulness. If you can do that, and if you can create a fully automatic system that can execute this judgment based on the principles you've derived, you can probably close this site because I think you'll be set for life :P
But good luck trying to get a decent approximation.
EDIT: To clarify, you're making a race out of something that was never intended to be one. You want to reward contributors to incite contribution. You should focus on doing just that. On another note, it's clear that the point assigner is utterly broken, work on that with all your might or you're going to end up losing people you want to keep.
To give an example, guide maintainers should be attributed for the amount of maintenance work they put in. When that publish button is pressed, award points relative to the amount of maintenance work done, maybe multiplied by a factor based on the guide score. (depending on what you think is exemplary MOBAFire behavior) (that said, you should reward first-time publishes of a full guide MUCH more, but that'll probably work out based on this system)
I also question the raffle system as is. It's usually unnecessary to reward someone multiple times in a year, it's better to reward evenly across the contributors. But your system does not reflect that. (IIRC some people already won twice, that's a serious issue)
I invite you to sit down and rank all MOBAFire members based on usefulness. If you can do that, and if you can create a fully automatic system that can execute this judgment based on the principles you've derived, you can probably close this site because I think you'll be set for life :P
But good luck trying to get a decent approximation.
But the leaderboard is cool. :^(
PsiGuard wrote:
Just to clear this up, there's nothing wrong with simple comments like this, so long as they're genuinely unique. If a user comments on a guide saying, "Hey, I read your guide and it really helped me get into jungling, thank you!" that's a fine comment. You don't need to go into any crazy detail or add criticism for it to be considered valid activity.
What's not fine is, "Wow, what a great guide, I am now inspired to become a [champion name] main and become a great player like you nice guide thank you." copy-pasted 30 times to different guides. If we pull a winner that's clearly spamming for tickets, they'll be disqualified.
Obviously you can report users that do stuff like this (since it's spam), but overall I wouldn't worry about cheaters winning the raffle.
Thanks for your input so far guys, keep the feedback coming!
For those of you who like the "point sinks" idea, do you have any ideas or preferences of what kind of prizes you'd like to be able to "buy" with your points?
For rewards I was thinking about this for a bit as well as prices (compared to the raffle points atm. Points of multiple months would be added of course). Pure ideas right now, but curious what you think:
- Mobafire vanity (badge, title, whatever) =100 points
- 2 commendations =200 points
- A month of Mobafire prime =300 points
- 500 RP =750 points
- Mobafire and League swag (caps, stickers, whatever. Price switches a lot depending on the item)
- An almost grand prize (a champion or skin of choice for example) ~2000 points
- A grand prize (a trip to a gamescon being fully paid including travelling costs where you can meet up with the admins and discuss the future of mobafire... for example :D) =10000
Something like this I think would be nice, so you can have something cheap but you can also choose to save up and actually get something worth your while. The prices are relatively high but still accessible, so you can get your ad revenue out of people's contribution before you pay them for it. I do not know if you should keep all rewards League related per se for a system where you can pick your reward, but there should definitely be a few options like that in there.
jhoijhoi wrote:
Spoiler: Click to viewThe things you mention about quests could be interesting. You technically could make the entirety of Mobafire a game and I think it could be a fun healthy competition. There are already competitive events on Mobafire, if we would have a point sink we could combine these events with the sink for example and maybe have smaller objectives along the way. It is definitely something cool that is worth thinking about. I wouldn't use 'experience' though, as a new system would have to be set in place for that and I don't know what rewards would be appropriate for it.
Change is gooooood
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The raffle has burned me out as far as actually putting any extra work into guides. I update as I change my own preferences, but that's it. I completely updated my coding to make it look prettier a while ago, which took quite a bit of work. Did anyone even notice? Ofc not, because there's nothing encouraging people to look.
Having points lowered without warning in the middle of the raffle due to "incorrect" guide scores (it's arbitrary values being assigned to things with no intrinsic value, it's also not the person's fault your system wasn't working as intended, punishing people mid-raffle for your mistakes looks bad), removing visible scores so no one can dispute their points if there's a mistake (regardless of the origin), or even just having a guide's score descriptor downgraded from one raffle to another with no score change is pretty demoralizing. You have discouraged people from actively participating – I hope you're aware of that – because it looks really bad from the outside.
Why would I, for example, put in any more extra effort? Voting isn't encouraged in any way still, so it's not like a guide's score is ever gonna go up. Plus, you still haven't fixed the issue of vote decay still primarily affecting guides with lower vote counts (it's been years). It's really, really hard to keep a decent score on a guide anyways unless you're one of those people who attracts actual votes rather than just attracting 2 million views.
Having points lowered without warning in the middle of the raffle due to "incorrect" guide scores (it's arbitrary values being assigned to things with no intrinsic value, it's also not the person's fault your system wasn't working as intended, punishing people mid-raffle for your mistakes looks bad), removing visible scores so no one can dispute their points if there's a mistake (regardless of the origin), or even just having a guide's score descriptor downgraded from one raffle to another with no score change is pretty demoralizing. You have discouraged people from actively participating – I hope you're aware of that – because it looks really bad from the outside.
Why would I, for example, put in any more extra effort? Voting isn't encouraged in any way still, so it's not like a guide's score is ever gonna go up. Plus, you still haven't fixed the issue of vote decay still primarily affecting guides with lower vote counts (it's been years). It's really, really hard to keep a decent score on a guide anyways unless you're one of those people who attracts actual votes rather than just attracting 2 million views.
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