Nyoike
<Member>
<Member>
Mkay, works for me.
I understand the reasoning behind the page setup, but it just seems to make it more complicated IMO.
Hopefully you guys figure a good alternative out, because I know some guides take a looooooong time to load. My Annie guide is one such example... takes me up to a minute sometimes... x.x
I understand the reasoning behind the page setup, but it just seems to make it more complicated IMO.
Hopefully you guys figure a good alternative out, because I know some guides take a looooooong time to load. My Annie guide is one such example... takes me up to a minute sometimes... x.x
To be updated soon!
Well that was one of the main reasons for breaking it up. The pages are massive and the load is getting too much. The question is, do you prefer several quick page loads, or one long page load? It seems like there are enough people that prefer one long page load that it could be detrimental to the site to change that.
We can't load guide sections asynchronously because that will prevent search engines from seeing it, which is worse for everyone :(
We can't load guide sections asynchronously because that will prevent search engines from seeing it, which is worse for everyone :(
Nyoike
<Member>
<Member>
Loading chapters separately from the main page. Such as having more chapters appear as you scroll, or expanding blocks and having the chapters download at that point. Deferring the download of content in this way decreases page load times and reduces load on the server, but search engines don't run Javascript when they index your site so anything loaded in this way doesn't exist to them.
Matt, of course you're going to get some people who don't like the paging system. Hoever, no one is suddenly going to leave MobaFire because now their comments section will be on a new tab (as if people don't like the tab system, they're just going to keep their guide under the build).
You've already outlined the benefits of this system, including shorter load times, reducing the loads on your server. Anyone who is still against this change is arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to get their own ideas into it.
The only suggestions I have left are:
- To place the navigation tabs at the top of the guide too, underneath the TOC so people can see there's a new page (you'd probably be surprised at how many people won't realise there's another page). Even then, this suggestion is only a "fail safe" catering towards people who may miss the tabs at the bottom.
- A "wizard" or a demonstration video should be made of the new features/how to make a guide. I made a quick one a long time ago for creating a guide, but it'll be out of date as soon as the turn-over is complete.
- I don't like the green blocks in the skilling order, but that's just my opinion :P
- Being able to name the separate categories in the cheat sheet and within the BBCode blocks, like instead of "Recommended Runes" I could name it "Defensive Runes".
- And of course the option to have multiple builds/summoner spells/skilling order/rune sets/masteries in the cheat sheet (masteries would have to be collapsible).
Still looking forward to the turnover though :)
You've already outlined the benefits of this system, including shorter load times, reducing the loads on your server. Anyone who is still against this change is arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to get their own ideas into it.
The only suggestions I have left are:
- To place the navigation tabs at the top of the guide too, underneath the TOC so people can see there's a new page (you'd probably be surprised at how many people won't realise there's another page). Even then, this suggestion is only a "fail safe" catering towards people who may miss the tabs at the bottom.
- A "wizard" or a demonstration video should be made of the new features/how to make a guide. I made a quick one a long time ago for creating a guide, but it'll be out of date as soon as the turn-over is complete.
- I don't like the green blocks in the skilling order, but that's just my opinion :P
- Being able to name the separate categories in the cheat sheet and within the BBCode blocks, like instead of "Recommended Runes" I could name it "Defensive Runes".
- And of course the option to have multiple builds/summoner spells/skilling order/rune sets/masteries in the cheat sheet (masteries would have to be collapsible).
Still looking forward to the turnover though :)
Nyoike
<Member>
<Member>
Matt wrote:
Loading chapters separately from the main page. Such as having more chapters appear as you scroll, or expanding blocks and having the chapters download at that point. Deferring the download of content in this way decreases page load times and reduces load on the server, but search engines don't run Javascript when they index your site so anything loaded in this way doesn't exist to them.
So my idea that I posted in the thread about the open beta wouldn't work then?
jhoijhoi wrote:
Matt, of course you're going to get some people who don't like the paging system. Hoever, no one is suddenly going to leave MobaFire because now their comments section will be on a new tab (as if people don't like the tab system, they're just going to keep their guide under the build).
You've already outlined the benefits of this system, including shorter load times, reducing the loads on your server. Anyone who is still against this change is arguing for the sake of arguing or trying to get their own ideas into it.
The only suggestions I have left are:
- To place the navigation tabs at the top of the guide too, underneath the TOC so people can see there's a new page (you'd probably be surprised at how many people won't realise there's another page). Even then, this suggestion is only a "fail safe" catering towards people who may miss the tabs at the bottom.
- A "wizard" or a demonstration video should be made of the new features/how to make a guide. I made a quick one a long time ago for creating a guide, but it'll be out of date as soon as the turn-over is complete.
- I don't like the green blocks in the skilling order, but that's just my opinion :P
- Being able to name the separate categories in the cheat sheet and within the BBCode blocks, like instead of "Recommended Runes" I could name it "Defensive Runes".
- And of course the option to have multiple builds/summoner spells/skilling order/rune sets/masteries in the cheat sheet (masteries would have to be collapsible).
Still looking forward to the turnover though :)
I don't like the paging simply because it seems like it is a detriment to its cause instead of actually helping it. It seems like it takes more time to get through the entire guide. With that said, it would help people that are only looking for one particular section of a guide.
I understand how it's supposed to help, but overall it seems like it will take even more time to load things with separate pages. I am not arguing to argue or to get my idea, which would be cool, but I do honestly believe it's a detriment to the cause.
I do agree with the navigation at the top if they continue with the pages, since it seems like they are unsure of it ATM. A wizard/demonstration video is pretty easy, yet also difficult. What exactly would it be of? The coding to output? Pictures show that pretty well.
I do like the green blocks in the skill order, one of my only complaints with the current setup is that it is difficult to tell which spot is ticked at which level. I really like having a nice green box that shows a nice, readable number in it.
Last idea is also, a good idea.
Sorry if I seem pissy, but having multiple pages won't lower load times all together, if at all. If someone is reading the entire guide, they will still need to load every bit of every part of every page, plus with ads thrown in, that might actually increase the amount of data transferred compared to just one page.
At this point I am eager for the new guide/build setup, but I, for one, will not be using pages if they come out.[/rant]
To be updated soon!
I don't think you're being pissy, I'm just afraid that Matt won't go ahead with the upgrade due to negative feedback. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but this sort of change doesn't effect anyone who doesn't want to be effected.
Don't want pages?
Then don't select "New Page Here".
Guides will be almost virtually the same, just an aesthetic facelift for the cheat sheet, and easier accessibility to the comments of the guide.
Currently the only negative aspect I can see coming is that people may not know/care there are more pages. But you can only spoon feed people so much before they bloat and die.
Don't want pages?
Then don't select "New Page Here".
Guides will be almost virtually the same, just an aesthetic facelift for the cheat sheet, and easier accessibility to the comments of the guide.
Currently the only negative aspect I can see coming is that people may not know/care there are more pages. But you can only spoon feed people so much before they bloat and die.
@jhoijhoi, it does affect READERS that don't want paging though. Authors can choose, readers can't. If a reader hates clicking multiple pages, and all the top guides use multiple pages, they may get frustrated and react negatively.
It's late and I am too tired at the moment to reply to everything said here, I'll come back to this tomorrow with a fresh head, but just wanted to comment on the load times.
Right now, some of our biggest guides can take up to 5-10s to load for members, especially when they aren't pulling from caches due to inactivity. There is a massive amount of work going on in those pages because they are SO long. In guides that use icon/wiki links heavily, for example, there can be as many as 2000 calls in one page for that alone. Even if each call takes a portion of a millisecond you're still looking at hundreds of milliseconds. Then you have any other bbcode being processed, the templates, all of the comments, all of the builds. Then after the page is built and you receive it, you have to download all of the graphics used in the page.
I wanted to discuss this a little bit. For one thing, the load times for members right now are crazy, not good. I have spent all of last week and will be spending all of this week working on getting that down as much as possible.
I am rewriting a number of our templates (which currently use a third party template parsing system) in raw PHP to drastically reduce build times.
I am working on replacing our third party bbcode parser with a hand-written one that allows me to cache pre-compiled bbcode and runs MUCH faster (I actually already have it working but it doesn't handle white space exactly the same as the old parser, so it still needs some work).
I am also reviewing the caching, again, to try and get member page loads up to speed. The main issue here is with the disabled profanity filter, trying to cache content with profanities enabled separately for members just doesn't work because the majority of our traffic are not logged in. This means members are constantly loading pages with no cache, so the servers have to build the page for you at that time. If profanities were made global, then the caches could be shared between guests and members, and the guests would be running around maintaining all the caches for members to help keep their load times super fast.
Try logging out and clicking around the site, you will see the difference.
Anyways, all that said... Nyoike, are you imagining that every page load is going to be as slow as the first? For example, a guide viewed as a member with no caching takes 5 to 10 seconds to load. Are you concerned that every sub-page is going to take that long? Because it will take a fraction of that. Not only is there MUCH less work being done now, all of the work I'm doing (described above) to reduce load times will affect the smaller pages. Further to that, if I could share the guide caches between members and guests, then the load times would become negligible.
It does still require more clicking, and if you frequently scroll around through guides while in-game, that could become very combersome. This is a more acceptable reason, IMO, to vote against multiple pages. However, a solution might be to offer a printer-friendly version that shows the entire guide and cheat sheets on one page... This would take a long time to load due to no caching and massive page, but you could use it for those times when you just want to have one specific guide up while playing. The rest of the time you could take advantage of the speed and features of the regular multi-page guides.
Anyways, this is a sticky situation. We are still deciding what to do with it.
It's late and I am too tired at the moment to reply to everything said here, I'll come back to this tomorrow with a fresh head, but just wanted to comment on the load times.
Right now, some of our biggest guides can take up to 5-10s to load for members, especially when they aren't pulling from caches due to inactivity. There is a massive amount of work going on in those pages because they are SO long. In guides that use icon/wiki links heavily, for example, there can be as many as 2000 calls in one page for that alone. Even if each call takes a portion of a millisecond you're still looking at hundreds of milliseconds. Then you have any other bbcode being processed, the templates, all of the comments, all of the builds. Then after the page is built and you receive it, you have to download all of the graphics used in the page.
I wanted to discuss this a little bit. For one thing, the load times for members right now are crazy, not good. I have spent all of last week and will be spending all of this week working on getting that down as much as possible.
I am rewriting a number of our templates (which currently use a third party template parsing system) in raw PHP to drastically reduce build times.
I am working on replacing our third party bbcode parser with a hand-written one that allows me to cache pre-compiled bbcode and runs MUCH faster (I actually already have it working but it doesn't handle white space exactly the same as the old parser, so it still needs some work).
I am also reviewing the caching, again, to try and get member page loads up to speed. The main issue here is with the disabled profanity filter, trying to cache content with profanities enabled separately for members just doesn't work because the majority of our traffic are not logged in. This means members are constantly loading pages with no cache, so the servers have to build the page for you at that time. If profanities were made global, then the caches could be shared between guests and members, and the guests would be running around maintaining all the caches for members to help keep their load times super fast.
Try logging out and clicking around the site, you will see the difference.
Anyways, all that said... Nyoike, are you imagining that every page load is going to be as slow as the first? For example, a guide viewed as a member with no caching takes 5 to 10 seconds to load. Are you concerned that every sub-page is going to take that long? Because it will take a fraction of that. Not only is there MUCH less work being done now, all of the work I'm doing (described above) to reduce load times will affect the smaller pages. Further to that, if I could share the guide caches between members and guests, then the load times would become negligible.
It does still require more clicking, and if you frequently scroll around through guides while in-game, that could become very combersome. This is a more acceptable reason, IMO, to vote against multiple pages. However, a solution might be to offer a printer-friendly version that shows the entire guide and cheat sheets on one page... This would take a long time to load due to no caching and massive page, but you could use it for those times when you just want to have one specific guide up while playing. The rest of the time you could take advantage of the speed and features of the regular multi-page guides.
Anyways, this is a sticky situation. We are still deciding what to do with it.
Could it be possible to have a "Revert to Old" button at the top of the guide? Then the viewer can see it without the pages, and if they choose to wait a minute for the old guide to load, then so be it, whereas us other people who want speedy load times won't bother?
At the very least, go ahead with the comments on a new tab. You should probably be able to comment at the bottom of every page, just make sure the actual comments don't have to load with the guide.
I sincerely doubt you will lose users due to the new layout. Every aspect of MobaFire is still the same, people will just have to learn that, like other sites, when a page exceeds a certain length, a page break occurs and a link will take you to the next content. People are already familiar with this in forums on threads, I'm sure the majority of us have read a 5+ page article at a news site. People will understand that there is more to the guide than just the build.
You could have a floating table of contents along the left or right hand side that scrolls when you do (sort of the when you're adding a new chapter in the build creator) - this would make it immediately apparent there are more pages.
Personally, I believe a slow loading time is a bigger deterrent than having to navigate a guide. I would literally open up my Ashe guide and go do something else before bothering to come back and edit it, it took that long (though this was a few months ago now). If non-users are getting these sorts of loading times... well, if I was them, I'd probably check out a few faster sites.
At the very least, go ahead with the comments on a new tab. You should probably be able to comment at the bottom of every page, just make sure the actual comments don't have to load with the guide.
I sincerely doubt you will lose users due to the new layout. Every aspect of MobaFire is still the same, people will just have to learn that, like other sites, when a page exceeds a certain length, a page break occurs and a link will take you to the next content. People are already familiar with this in forums on threads, I'm sure the majority of us have read a 5+ page article at a news site. People will understand that there is more to the guide than just the build.
You could have a floating table of contents along the left or right hand side that scrolls when you do (sort of the when you're adding a new chapter in the build creator) - this would make it immediately apparent there are more pages.
Personally, I believe a slow loading time is a bigger deterrent than having to navigate a guide. I would literally open up my Ashe guide and go do something else before bothering to come back and edit it, it took that long (though this was a few months ago now). If non-users are getting these sorts of loading times... well, if I was them, I'd probably check out a few faster sites.
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We're going to disable paging on the new guide system, for now, and roll it out with just the new look and discussion tab. We've had enough protests and votes against multi-page guides to give us pause on that. I won't fully strip it out, we're still considering what to do, but it's not looking good. I wish we could get more votes - 22 people is just way too small a group.