My Ashe Guide

[quote=Jebus McAzn][quote=The_Nameless_Bard] [quote=Jebus McAzn]Consider that Infinity Edge into Last Whisper into Zeal is one of the strongest openings for Ashe.[/quote] Using nothing but pure numbers, BC is the best choice. Oddly enough, SotD actually gives you better armor pen with the active than any of the above listed items, but that's not important. I'm not saying Last Whisper is bad, but the math says BC should be a better choice for 50-113 armor and Youmuu's should be better for 20-50 armor. Once they hit 113 armor you should get a LW: it should be treated the same as a void staff, as it ends up being almost worthless early game compared to other ArPen items. [/quote] My first link says differently. BC is better below 100 armor, but marginally so. Last Whisper+Zeal offers almost 30% more damage at 200 armor up and gives increased mobility, crit chance, etc.[/quote]

[quote=Canoas]crap, accidentally edited this post. I think what I had said is that since TBC has a on hit effect the stack will not contribute to that hit, so: 1st hit: 0 pen 2nd hit: 15 pen 3rd hit: 30 pen 4th hit: 45 pen[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]As it will most likely take more than three hits to kill someone from full health, so that didn't seem to be particularly relevant. I did say specifically that over 113 armor def. means last whisper, as an aside. I wasn't calculating in anything other than LW vs. BC vs. GB. And the numbers say (with no other items) that BC>LW when armor is below 113, GB>LW when armor is below 50, and BC>GB because it gives more armor pen. Youmuu's + Zeal would probably be a better early game combo than LW + Zeal imo. Youmuu's and LW are about the same amount of GP (2272 and 2290), but Youmuu's gives crit chance, AS, and CDR, along with more reliable armor pen (up until 50 armor as mentioned earlier). It appears, from what I've read, that the % armor reduced DOES NOT apply to turrets (?), so that makes LW very specialized.[/quote]

[quote=Canoas]Ok, here's some math: Champs have 70-80 base armor at lvl 18, +12 from aegis, so 82-92 armor at least. Since Ashe will take marks of desolation, and the minimum average armor is 87: LW: (87-15)*0.6 = 43 BC: (87-15)-45 = 27 With the least possible armor at lvl 18 a TBC will only be better than LW at the last hit. 1st hit: (87-15) = 72 2nd hit: (87-15) - 15 = 57 3rd hit: (87-15) - 30 = 42 4th hit: (87-15) - 45 = 27 Calculating the damage done: LW: All hits: 69.9% of the damage BC: 1st hit: 58.1% 2nd hit: 64.7% 3rd hit: 70.4% 4th hit: 78.7% Average damage with BC (by no. of hits): 4 hits: 68% 5 hits: 70.1% 6 hits: 71.6% 7 hits: 72.6% ... 11 hits: 74.8% You need to hit the same target, which the least amount of armor possible, 12 times before you deal more 5% damage than with LW. Only at your 5th hit have you done more damage than with LW, and usually by the 5th hit, if the target has the minimum possible amount of armor, it will already be dead. Against anyone with one single armor item LW will always deal more damage. Not to mention that if you switch targets with TBC the stacks will reset, but with LW you'll always dealt the max dmg possible. EDIT: TBC stacks don't apply to turrets either. EDIT: I'm also only taking into account the armor pen. TBC has +15 dmg and 30 atspd than LW.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]You ARE overlooking the fact that BC has more attack damage and attack speed than LW+Zeal, but the armor calculations are quite nice to have - note also that again, once they buy a Chain Vest to counter your damage, or if they have, say, a Taric or a support with Aegis on their team, they will easily reach over 100 or even 150 armor and make that Cleaver even more ineffective. Although I don't believe armor penetration from any item affects towers. Someone correct me on that if I'm wrong. EDIT: This was written before your second edit so ignore the redundancy.[/quote]

[quote=Canoas]Armor pen/reduction does not affect turrets. Forgot about taric. If they have a taric+aegis then the 40% pen > 45 reduction. Also, TBC costs more 575g than LW. Taking into account the 30aspd and 15dmg for only 575g it's clearly better than LW for a target that has 100 or less armor. The same cannot be said for a target that has more armor. I do not feel like doing extensive math, but let's see the damage with the armor pen/reduction on a target with different armor. I will use the 3rd hit's dmg since it seems to be closer to the average (and was only surpassed at the 5th hit). 120 armor: LW - 61.4% TBC - 57.1% 160 armor: LW - 53.5% TBC - 46.5% 200 armor: LW - 58.47% TBC - 39.2% TBC does have more 15AD and 30ASPD for just 575g. But at only 120armor LW will do more 4.3%, and I think the extra 30aspd and 15dmg will barely make up for those 4.3%. At 160 armor LW will be better for sure. Also, your AP caster and off-tank can easily kill the squishies, It's the AD that will have to kill the tanks and off-tanks. EDIT: Also, the enemies with low armor will be on the back, you won't get to them until the way has been cleared, and usually they will have already been dealt with.[/quote]

[quote=Eihn]Thanks for this![/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]I was doing overly specific calculations. I didn't calculate a lot of things in, and that was my mistake. I do, however, think that if you want to combine a relatively cheap item with zeal: Youmuu's could be better utility-wise than LW. You get some crit chance, AS, and CDR plus a smaller (but still decent) amount of armor pen. The active makes it easier for you to chase/kill turrets, so I don't see much of a downside to getting it instead. RANDOM COMMENT: I feel the need to point out that I gave up on playing Ashe when my friends made it clear they would not support me if I played a carry. T.T[/quote]

[quote=Canoas]Youmuu's costs more than LW.. LW costs around 2300g, Youmuu's + Zeal costs like 4k gold. I don't think you can compare the two = /[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Nope I checked Youmuu's: 2272 LW: 2290 I might have them backwards but one was 2272 and the other was 2290[/quote]