My Ashe Guide

[quote=Jebus McAzn]Not on Ashe. LW and TBC are basically all you should consider for armor pen.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Unless there's Jax, then I assume SotD is ok[/quote]

[quote=Searz]If he's fed and is dominating your team, otherwise; no.[/quote]

[quote=TheJohn]I prefer [[The Black Cleaver]], its AD+AS+def reduce, but [[Last Whisper]] is sure good. [[Youmuu's Ghostblade]] is an option too, but not the best choice. [[Sword of the Divine]]? You're willing to become a machine gun?[/quote]

[quote=B-Wong][quote=TheJohn] I prefer [[The Black Cleaver]], its AD+AS+def reduce, but [[Last Whisper]] is sure good. [[Youmuu's Ghostblade]] is an option too, but not the best choice. [[Sword of the Divine]]? You're willing to become a [b]bubble blowing machine[/b]? [/quote] fix'd Unless that jax is ripping you a new one I wouldn't recommend getting one. Youmuu's isn't preferable over TBC/LW.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=Scrax] I've always considered [[Last Whisper]] a must, if that contributes any.[/quote] There are times where I have bought Last Whisper instead of [[the black cleaver]] and my teammates were like, "wth are you doing? They're not stacking armour, Black Cleaver would have been a better choice." So I just don't know, but I do see the advantages in getting [[last whisper]]. It's a good item - I think the main problem I have with it is it's percentage armour penetration. If I get Last Whisper, I can't get any other armour penetration items because the remaining items are all flat reduction. And everyone knows you shouldn't mix flat reduction with percentage reduction. I haven't done the math, but what happens to my armour penetration runes if I buy a [[last whisper]]? [quote=tinolas] I do agree with your skilling order in general (R > W > E = Q) but why is your actual order so weird (according to your Ability Sequence)?[/quote] Oh, it's R > W > E / Q. As in, you level up [[frost shot]] and [[hawkshot]] equally. Both are very important to Ashe's Utility and Damage. The level of Frost Shot is applied to [[volley]] so it's a prerogative to skill up the slow. However, the range of Hawkshot increases each time you skill it, and by last level you can scan Baron from base. [quote=thejohn] I think it's better to lvl up Frost Shot instead of Hawkshot, more slow = more chance to kill.[/quote] Sometimes I think I should just level up [[frost shot]] instead of leveling it equally with [[hawkshot]], but I just find the utility Hawkshot gives is too useful not to take advantage of. [quote=the_nameless_bard] What about Youmuu's instead of Last whisper? that's my usual armor pen[/quote] The problem with [[youmuu's ghostblade]] is that it's serverely gimped on ranged champions. It's better on melee DPS like [[trundle]], [[xin xhao]] and [[renekton]], I believe. [[the brutilizer]] however, is a great item to get for any carry, but it seems like such a waste to buy it and then sell it for something else. [quote=jebus mcazn] Always Last Whisper or Black Cleaver on Ashe.[/quote] I've seen guides that recommend both :P [quote=mowen] I usually get last whisper after BV then bloodthirster, just played a ranked game with this build and went 18/3/8. Doran's Blade > boots > Infinity Edge > Berserker's Greaves > Phantom Dancer > Banshee's Veil > The Bloodthirster Running arpen / mregen / attackspeed / swiftness runes Masteries 9/0/21 I was very fast and hard to catch with pd / swiftness quints /masteries I found the summoner spell cd reduction very helpful Btw, ie @ 20 min ;) CDR runes would probably be better for the glyphs[/quote] So the items are similar except you get [[berserker's greaves]] (which is fine assuming you swap them out for [[mercury's treads]] later. I love getting [[boots of swiftness]], but I find that Ashe has not enough natural magic resist, and Mercury's Treads are just so useful for the CC reduction and the nice magic resist. I tried attack speed Marks, and I found they were lacklustre compared to the armour penetration. I wouldn't give up the mana regeneration or the cooldown reduction either haha, both seem vital for [[ashe]]. I have tried Utility Tree Ashe and it just doesn't suit my playstyle for whatever reason. I'm just so used to slapping people in the face with my first critical strike and [[volley]] and watching them slink back slowly behind their creeps. But maybe I'll try utility tree Ashe again sometime - the movement speed increase and mana regeneration would be nice. Ah. I guess that's why I go for the Offensive Tree - because my runes are primarily Utility, so I want to make up the damage with Mastery Points. I imagine if I did go somehow pure damage in one way or another with my runes and chose the Utility Tree, it'd balance itself out to the same end result. [quote=potatisfarfar] I wuld rekomend Infinity Edge > Last Whisper > Phantom Dancer Swap the PD with the LW works to[/quote] So you think [[last whisper]] is better than [[the black cleaver]]? I really need to figure out how to graph statistics so I can compare things ^^ [quote=searz] Summoners': all good. Mastery tree: works, but I find 15/0/15 and 0/9/21 better. Runes: works, but I think the best setup would be; ArP or AD quints, ArP marks, HP/lvl seals and MP5/lvl glyphs. Skilling order: works, but I usually go for W>E>W>Q>W>R>W>E>W>Q>R>Q>Q>Q>E>R>E>E. I just like an extra point in Hawkshot early on. Items: they're nice. One of the builds with highest DPS of all carry builds. I graphed it :)[/quote] Oooh, could I see that graph? What Mastery Points do you allocate to each side? Wouldn't giving up the main points, Havoc or Presence of the Master, be kinda bad? However. I guess I can agree with that. 5% extra damage seems kinda lame when you think about it: 5% of 100 = 5 extra damage. HP/lvl seals aren't something I've ever considered on [[ashe]] o.O But I can see the benefits of it. The only problem is that I wouldn't want to give up my mana regeneration Seals, as [[ashe]] runs out of mana pretty fast with those Seals as it is. - - - Thanks guys, for the very helpful replies! I will quote a lot of it in my guide, and perhaps remove [[the black cleaver]] from my main build and leave a space for players to choose between [[last whisper]] and [[the black cleaver]]. Do you think that's a good idea? - jhoijhoi[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]I've updated my guide to include many of the suggestions made in this thread as quotes, so thank you all for your contributions :)[/quote]

[quote=Mowen]I actually got berserker's greaves mostly because there wasn't much CC on the other team. I was also doing well at staying in the back and not getting focused. But getting early zerker's greaves and selling for merc later is also good. :)[/quote]

[quote=Jet]dont listen to mowen, selling items is stupid as fuck answering your question: [b]Summoners[/b]: Flash + Ghost [b]Mastery Tree Set[/b]: 0/9/21 or 15/0/15 (i suppose 21/0/9 is outdated) (0/9/21 if you know you will have to deal with champs like jarvan or urgot) [b]Runes[/b]: HP quints, ArP Marks, mp5/lvl / armor Seals, Flat MR / mp5/lvl glyphs (/ means alt. runes) [b]Skilling[/b] Order: [[Enchanted Crystal Arrow]] > [[Volley]] > [[Frost Shot]] > [[Hawkshot]] (at level 2 1 point in hawkshot, then leave it) [b]Items[/b]: [[boots of speed]] + 3 [[Health Potion]] [b][u]OR[/u][/b] [[Doran's Blade]] (depending on lane matchup) > [[infinity edge]] > [[berserker's greaves]] > [[Last Whisper]] > [[zeal]] (optional) > [[banshee's veil]] [u][b]OR[/b][/u] [[Guardian Angel]] (heavy AP burst = banshee, otherwise GA). Final item depends really, prefer [[the bloodthrister]] if they have squishy people (and gives indirect support) but against more tanky teams I'd take [[Madred's Bloodrazor]] assuming they have a lot of armor and health. never use black cleaver ever ever ever ever ever don't sell items ever ever ever ever ever (yes mowen, don't do it) mercs is sort of useless compared to berserkers, i mean, if you need to buy them because they have that much CC on your team, you're going to die if they focus you either way berserkers most cost efficent AS item in the game zeal > phantom dancer due to cost efficency, but if you have the gold after you finish all your other items and you aren't needing elixers, feel free to finish it[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=Jet]dont listen to mowen, selling items is stupid as fuck[/quote] I disagree. For instance, if you did buy [[berserker's greaves]] because you were laning against [[sivir]] (for example), and then teamfights erupted where the rest of the enemy team had multiple stuns/did huge magic damage bursts - it'd be prudent to sell those boots and buy [[mercury's treads]]. [quote=jet][b]Mastery Tree Set[/b]: 0/9/21 or 15/0/15 (i suppose 21/0/9 is outdated) (0/9/21 if you know you will have to deal with champs like jarvan or urgot)[/quote] Why is 21/0/9 outdated? Also, what points would you allocate into offense and utility if you went 15/0/15? I assume not the Attack Speed? [quote=jet][b]Runes[/b]: HP quints, ArP Marks, mp5/lvl / armor Seals, Flat MR / mp5/lvl glyphs (/ means alt. runes)[/quote] When I did run with HP Quints, I was pretty unkillable, but I found myself missing the damage boost from the quints of armour penetration. Then I tried quints of swiftness and they're pretty awesome. However, I can definitely see the benefit in buying HP quints for the early game advantage. With regards to the armour seals - just like how hp/lvl seals were suggested earlier, I have to concede I didn't think of either. It does seem like the mp5/lvl gives greater utility though. [quote=jet]never use black cleaver ever ever ever ever ever[/quote] Is [[the black cleaver]] really that inferior? Consider: Enemy team: [[Lux]], [[Vayne]], [[Trundle]], [[Malphite]] and [[sona]] (for arguments sake) As [[last whisper]] does percentage armour penetration, that item is really only going to be useful against (hypothetically) Malphite's 150+ armour and Trundle's 120+ armour. Lux with 80+ armour, Vayne with 70+ armour and Sona 70+ armour only get 30, 20ish and 25ish taken off respectively. With [[the black cleaver]] armour is reduced thus: Lux is lowered to 35, Vayne to 25 and Sona to 25. Yes, you're only knocking off 45 armour from the two tanky champions (Malphite and Trundle) - but you're not meant to be targeting the tank. Damage > Support > Tank. That's of course if you can hit those champions three times in a row. The Black Cleaver is also very useful for the team because that armour reduction is permanent - by permanent I mean the whole team is dealing damage to the Lux with only 35 armour for that fight. [[last whisper]], however, only affects your own damage. [quote=jet]mercs is sort of useless compared to berserkers, i mean, if you need to buy them because they have that much CC on your team, you're going to die if they focus you either way[/quote] One could argue the same point for the suggestion of [[guardian angel]]. If you buy it because you need it in case you die, you're going to die once you respawn as they'll focus you either way. But I digress. [[mercury's treads]] are extremely useful due to the fact that they not only reduce crowd control effects through the new tenacity mechanic, but also give magic resist. That early magic resist is phenomenal if you happen to be stuck mid or solo against [[vladimir]]. [quote=jet]berserkers most cost efficent AS item in the game[/quote] Yes, I agree with you there. I wish it was viable to get it more often, but it's more likely that I play against a team whose champions all have at least one form of slow or stun. Unless I buy a tenacity item, I will stick with Mercury's Treads for now. Nothing's more painful than trying to run away from [[nunu]] once he's hit you with that huge chunk of floating ice. Thanks for your feedback, Jet. I'll go add Quints of Fortitude (and the other runes) into my Reasonable Runes section. Also, thanks for being extremely civil ^^[/quote]