RE: Not Requiring Comment Issue - "I AIN'T EVEN...

[quote=Svingas]What are we saying is an average score?[/quote]

[quote=SpicyRice]I think some of you may have misunderstood my point; this form of voting will make it difficult to distinguish good from excellent guides, mostly because the highest rated guides will be disproportionately targeted by trollvotes and jealous votes. Please bare with me for a second as I just set out the grounding for my argument, which previously i thought would have been taken as given, but perhaps needs to be set out more clearly as a premise: Because of the weighted bayesian scoring system, i would guess that most good guides are between 60 - 75%. If you were to draw a graph showing the distribution of scores, i would imagine it would follow a normal distribution (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=normal+distribution) with the mean around 65-70%. There wouldn't be much of a curve on the left side since it is unusual to have guides with many more -ve votes than +votes. Now the top 1/8th or 1/10 would have very high scores,i would guess around 80%+. However these are most likely to be troll-voted and jealous-voted due to the thinking processes which foster this behaviour. This type of -ve voting would apply less to the two middle quartiles of guides. Over a few months, as this disproportional downvoting takes place, i would expect the good 60-75% guides go down slightly, but the excellent 80%+ guides go down much more dramatically, and in some cases join the ranks of the 60-75% guides. The problem is this: how then can you tell an excellent guide from a good guide? This problem means: people will be less satisfied with Mobafire since the rating system is less reflective of the quality of the guide than it currently is. In addition it will remove part of the "prove myself" incentive that people have when they are considering whether to write a new guide and how much effort to put in. It also causes a new problem of entrenchment of old, successful guides. For example consider a new guide and an old guide, both on 93%: The old guide will have 93% from 185/200. The new guide will have 93% from 25/25 (i'm guessing but it's around this number). Now that the system is changed, the old guides are much less affected by a few trolling/jealous downvotes than the newer (arguably even better) guides. I recently made a Sion guide which was 24/24 only to pick up three uncommented downvotes in a day, and this is, you'll forgive the main reason behind my interest in the matter. So i expect something along these lines to happen with the new changes: - the oldest high rated guides will go down slightly - the newest high rated guides will go down significantly - the mid-range guides will go down slightly, more so if they are newer - the ratings of most guides will tend toward the 60-75% region, that is to say the standard deviation of the guide ratings will decrease -> excellent guides will not be easily distinguishable from good and ok guides In regard to sheep votes, i don't think they fall disproportionately on the top guides, whereas the troll/jealous votes do. so the effects do not cancel out. If i have some of the numbers wrong it is because i don't have access to the data in the same way that the mods do, however i would be very surprised if it were so different from my guesses that it materially affected the arguments i've made.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=SpicyRice]this form of voting will make it difficult to distinguish good from excellent guides, mostly because the highest rated guides will be disproportionately targeted by trollvotes and jealous votes.[/quote] This is exactly what we want. My mental model is that, all the guides on the site are water molecules of a pond. The best guides can reach the surface, while the worst guides are pressured back into the center where none can see it. Downvotes help regulate and criticize which are better, and push some guides back down. When you say "disproportionately targeted" I hear "naturally criticized" [quote=SpicyRice]So i expect something along these lines to happen with the new changes: - the oldest high rated guides will go down slightly - the newest high rated guides will go down significantly - the mid-range guides will go down slightly, more so if they are newer - the ratings of most guides will tend toward the 60-75% region, that is to say the standard deviation of the guide ratings will decrease -> excellent guides will not be easily distinguishable from good and ok guides[/quote] @old guides: Can't fix mistakes of the past, it isn't a perfect system. @new guides: Not all guides come under fire, exaggerated. @mid guides: Exactly what we want. @"60-75%" region: Untrue. I think you're overestimating the impact of troll votes. It's not like 10 people will focus onto any single guide.Good guides will get many positive votes, as they deserve. These votes are always proportionally higher then negative votes. In the past before C2V was even implemented, there were plenty of guides going up to 80%. This was a good number, 80% = A in most schools, and 90% was the goal everyone had. Now everything's 90%. In short: Down votes won't hurt as much as you think because C2V wasn't always here and we've experienced how that went. @Excellent guides: will be able to rise past the old/mid because they are better.[/quote]

[quote=Xaioli]As long as someone out there still needs my guides, [img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhk6phiZPW1qf16qe.jpg[/img][/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=Xaioli] As long as someone out there still needs my guides[/quote] Says the Veteran with two 90s. Trollololol :P[/quote]

[quote=Xaioli]Well Jun, I said it since my first day here! I said that I won't leave my guides/MOBAFire as long as there are still people that need me/my help. It just so happens I have guides that are 90+ : P[/quote]

[quote=SpicyRice]mmmmmm time will tell i guess. as a suggestion to fix the problem of entrenchment of old and successful guides. perhaps it would be best to modify their rating so that they don't keep benefits of the "comment to vote" rule while newer guides don't get any benefit from it: the problem stated simply: new guide is 24/24 90% old guide is 180/200 90% c2v rule removed: 3 troll/jealous votes on each: new guide is now 24/27: 82% old guide is now 180/203: 89% as you can see the old guide still enjoys the benefits of the c2v system. these benefits are never available to newer guides... proposed solution: make a rule that each guide will have it's votes reduced to 100 but the ratio kept: guide is changed to 90/100. this means that trollvotes/jealous votes which you assume would be evenly distributed between the excellent guides would have a similar effect on the old guides as the new ones. in this case, the effects wouldn't be equal, but would be similar... this might be effort to do, and it might annoy some of the owners of the older guides, but if you really want the cream to rise to the top, i think something along these lines is sensible...[/quote]

[quote=Sacull_Kinslayer]His point is something I have told many people. Doesn't matter what my score is if I help someone or anyone then I am happy. Yea it used to bother me the random down votes with no comment. My guide had 11 of them before the comment to vote came out. But I came to realize that the score doesn't matter. I just want to offer the help that I wish I had when I first started. And the trolls are still out there. Because you have to comment doesn't mean that it will be a coherent or rational comment. The 3 downvotes I have received since the comment system was implemented are: 1) ToB is an important skills and should be leveled before Sanguine Pool. However if that someone actually had read it they would have seen at least 1 of the many times I suggest leveling ToB over over Sanguine Pool to increase your DPS. But only if the player feels comfortable with it. 2) It is too long and has too much information. Really?? 3) Bad. The funny part is that that person made a guide and pretty much just copy and pasted the top Vlad guide. The trolls are out there. But as long as a person is doing a guide for the right reasons the trolling haters won't bother them. And people know who they are. It is going to happen regardless. I just wish they could make it where if you vote you have to give a coherent and detailed reason as to why you voted. +1 or -1.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=SpicyRice]as you can see the old guide still enjoys the benefits of the c2v system. these benefits are never available to newer guides...[/quote] There is currently a feature being tested, it will make old guides which weren't updated in the last 2 patches (usually 1 month) hidden from most public view. Not sure if it's already implemented or not. http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/forum/mobafire-support/should-old-guides-be-auto-archived-3268 [quote=Sacull_Kinslayer] if I help someone or anyone then I am happy. [/quote] Negativity Bias negates this statement. People are actively more attentive to negative or threatening information. From an evolutionary standpoint this is logical, because ignoring a threat can mean death. Trying to preach "I'm still happy" way of thinking won't help. Better to make people understand that those downvotes are not a threat, rather then saying you'll tank the threat.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]My 5-champion guide went from 95% to 92%. I was happy. It didn't deserve to be at 95% - that score is supposed to be nearly unattainable, and I knew that there were flaws in it. I remember "the good old days" when getting above 80% was an accomplishment. ^_^[/quote]