No real point in making guides on this site

[quote=jhoijhoi]Psi, you said everything I was trying to say in a more concise manner. Thank you.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=PsiGuard] Since this thread has erupted into three different complicated arguments at once, I'll try to keep my post very brief and respond to a couple things out of the last 2 or 3 pages. [/quote] This was all very well said :) Bravo good sir.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]Damn it Psi, you're too good at this stuff <.< Nerf pl0x[/quote]

[quote=TheWeekndOVOXO]Psi is on point. I guess I should continue working on my guide even though I lost a lot of hope...[/quote]

[quote=animorte]I truly do miss DEWO's thread-killers. It saved a lot of time. :P[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote] This really is the heart of most of your arguments. I don't believe that skill is necessary to make accurate judgments of a guide at all. If that's true, none of the judgments you've made about other guides are valid, nor are mine or anyone else's except professional players. That means that when you say that Udyr guide deserved a high score, [i]your opinion doesn't matter because you're not 2500 elo[/i]. That means that when Duff nominates a Ryze guide for recommendation, [i]he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's not 2500 elo[/i]. This is obviously not true, because there are a good number of people on this site who [i]do[/i] know what they're talking about, and none of them are 2k elo. What [i]is[/i] necessary to recommend guides? [i]Knowledge[/i]. You base your judgments about builds and guides based on your knowledge of the game and the knowledge you glean from other people, including professional players. Judging the viability of a build has nothing at all to do with skill. It's probably true that almost all 2k+ elo players have a very good understanding of the game. This does not mean that you need to have their level of skill to have their level of knowledge. I can tell you to max Q on Caitlyn without being flawless at last-hitting. I can tell you how to build Yorick without being the best Yorick player in the world. The argument that only high-elo players know anything and everyone else is ignorant is simply not true. It's true that most high-elo players are likely knowledgeable, but not all knowledgeable players are high-elo. Now unfortunately, Rep isn't an accurate measurement of knowledge or skill. I would prefer that we have some sort of system that rewards effort with Editor, game knowledge with Scout and integrity with Veteran. I haven't a clue how this could be done, but for the moment the Rep system isn't too bad. EDIT: Okay, I said "very brief" and it wasn't, but I've already deleted like 5 paragraphs I wrote so this'll have to do. [/quote] I NEVER said that people can't make judgement on a guide unless they're skilled. Of course they can. However, that won't ensure EVERY single guide is good. Obviously you need no skill to notice that Cait's Q is to be maxed first. I'd agree with the statement that people like us will know similar things to high elo players, but as a quick, but valid example, a high elo player would argue for maxing E first on lane Xin whereas a lower elo player might not. That takes more insight than maxing Q fist on Caitlyn. The fact of the matter is - the only way we can assure good guides get scouted is by some sort of skill rating. Of course I don't know what skill rating we could use. As I said, though, a quick and easy way would be a platinum badge. Done and dusted. Scouts are a step forward as I've said - though reputation isn't earned through game knowledge alone. Not all scouts will be bad, naturally, but one or two will be. It's easier to agree on general guides (like the ones "featured" now) than more champion oriented guides. As you say, Jhoi, people aren't "nominating" guides about champions they don't themselves play. What if no Scouts play Shyvana (for example)? Though a very good player can instantly think of a good build for every champion in the game, Scouts will definitely have limited knowledge, as I do. I can't honestly say I have much solo top knowledge at all, my jungle knowledge, however, IS good. I DO NOT think the current scouted guides are wrong - nor did I EVER say that, you're twisting my words. I said that some guides (though clearly not those two) can and will be scouted even though they aren't really that good. I didn't once say that Scouts couldn't be trusted, either. You're pouring venom into this argument that was never there in the first place - I said the scout system is flawed, you're turning it into me personally attacking scouts themselves. I would PM Matt, but simply sweeping the bad scouted guides at the moment wouldn't stop bad ones from ever being scouted in the future, not that he'd actually send me the list anyway, or that that's even the problem. I can clear nominations as much as I'd like, but the whole reason good guides aren't highly rated on this site is because they aren't highly rated - and have "questionable" items to bad players. Scouts that are bad players will scout point or vote accordingly. By the way, to EVERYONE - I DIDN'T EVER say that Scouts were a bad thing. They're definitely a step in the right direction. I merely said that since Scouts aren't completely based off skill, it's a flawed system. We still won't see good guides. As for the Tiamat Soraka analogy - I didn't mean you'd all vote on a Tiamat Soraka, just merely how someone (I forgot who it was now, maybe Psi) said that if people explain why they have items they have, they will get a scout point. I can explain Tiamat on Soraka, but that doesn't make it good. Hearing explanations alone doesn't make something good. A more real-life scenario would be Morello's Evil Tome on pretty much any caster. Also, there should be something on a guide in the side bar (where it lists the guides with percentages) to say it's scouted, and also something on the guide to say it's featured, like the old Veteran sign. I think featured guides should be brought back to the main page, too, rather than random high rated guides.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]The reason why there are no featured guides on the front page at the moment is because there are only two featured guides. I believe Matt is waiting for some more guides to become featured before he changes that. Personally, I apologise. I honestly thought you were calling scouts untrust-worthy. If that's not the case, then okay. However, I still disagree with your main point - I believe the system at the moment is fine. I posted a lot of your comments into the vet forums and Matt wrote a reply that I think is appropriate to quote here as it addresses most of your concerns and suggestions: [quote=matt]Do we have a queue of platinum players lined up, excited to start reviewing guides? I'm happy to promote people with a high Elo that are interested in doing this, but none have stepped forward (that aren't already promoted). Someone with that "200 posts 10 rep and 2000 Elo" is not likely to want to spend their time doing this, since their interest level is only enough to garner those 200 posts. As I've said in the past, we don't have a pro team to ride on, and we're not out looking for one. What we have is a huge, varied community, with very dedicated and committed members. While Scouts do not need skill or Elo to gain their rank, they do need a lot of trust and confidence from the rest of the community. This makes Scout Points basically "extra powerful votes". They are a jury of the MOBAFire guide author's peers that can promote guides for a lot of reasons, not just "this is the correct, cookie cutter way to play X champ". Everyone is so focused on finding that one "correct" build and then shutting everything else down. We're not here to tell people what that is. We're here to provide tools for everyone to learn, experiment, discuss, improve and have fun while doing it. Why should a few pros at the top of the ranks be the only ones to have all the fun? Do people really want us to go hire a few top rank players to decide what you get to read then flush everything else down the toilet? We got to this point by doing what we do, so obviously people like it and want it and there is a place for it.[/quote] EDIT: As for displaying guides with scout points, we don't want to. Once guides are featured, they'll get some sort of symbol, but we want scout points to remain a secret - so people can't send scouts PMs asking for their guide to get featured if they need one more point or whatever.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]@Psi It will probably make more sense if you read the rest of the paragraph :P I could argue that Elementz & SV guides should be the only ones displayed for their champions because they have the most experience on the site, potential best builds on the site, etc.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Duff's overview, and any or all of this could be wrong, but this is just my perception of the discussion. ----------------------------------------------------- MobaFire's current layout does not and cannot support the most skilled player's guides reaching the top of the pyramid. MobaFire's current layout does support the detailed guide maker's guide reaching the top of the pyramid. I think this bothers Xenasis. I think he would prefer if there was a way to get the proven player's guides to the top, where he feels they belong due to their skill levels. ------------------------------------------------------- We all know that Rep, and a MobaFire denizen's "Status" (Vet, Scout, Editor, Mod, what have you) has no correlation to their skill in league. Many of my personal concerns have been addressed with the new rework. I understand the reality that many of our Editors and Scouts and Vets are actually players with only 300 normal wins who are barely getting their feet wet with the theory of League, and thusly might not make the 100% best decisions every time, but now we have a sort of checks and balances system. The new system is VASTLY superior to the old one, where the same uneducated 300 win Vet might have rec'd a fairly well written guide with a fairly average build because, well, let's face it, a 300 win player might not know any better on the subject. That was my main problem with the old system, and my frequent and repeated complaint in regards to "What a Vet was" before. I understand this concern and sympathize with it, I think Xenasis wants the best for MobaFire, by hoping that Pro guides would be ushered towards the top. ------------------------------------------------------ However, a few legitimate problems with that scenario exist. 1; There just aren't that many pros writing guides. 2; That defeats the format of MobaFire which is in my perception, "Level playing ground for all guide makers" (This is part of why I disliked the old method so much, I didn't feel there was a legitimate level field for all guide makers.) 3; The new system -might- be good enough that we won't have to worry about that. Now, are we still going to have low skill players judging whether or not a guide merits a rec? Yes. Are we still going to have good guides downvoted into oblivion and never get the recognition that they deserved before anybody sees them? Of course. And will average guides still make it to the top of the food chain due to trivial reasons such as a player's popularity, having a green or an orange name, having an elaborately written guide, etc? Without question, yes, this will happen. However, not the way it did before, which was obviously broken, and I for one have a positive outlook on the direction of the site. I'm looking forward to seeing how the new system works in terms of bringing out newer and under rated guides to the eyes of the masses. ^_^ Yes, many of Xenasis's points are not addressed, but I think we should also be asking, "Is that even the objective of MobaFire?" Do we really even want this to be a place where Pro guides are "Clear Cut and Dry" above the rest?[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Matt has already answered 'No' to that question, Duff. In all fairness i'm wondering if we shouldn't just have a section that only 'pro' players can access (and not anyone else except admins). Like a vet/scout/editor forum. And how can we check that? Well i'm pretty sure if Riot can do it for their support forums with only 2-10 people working on it, we can too :3[/quote]