Who counters Trundle in the jungle?

[quote=DuffTime][quote=GrandmasterD] Yeah you could, but my 'theory' is that Rammus can definitely destroy Trundle in a 1v1 due to his endless taunt and crazy early damage. He should watch out for Trundle counterjungling him but I dont think Trundle will be that eager to do that since walking into Rammus would mean certain death. [/quote] Trundle breaks tanks and has CCR. I don't think Rammus would be beating Trundle any time soon, and even if he could, the game isn't about 1v1 effects. :P Trundle directly counter super tanks. Who are super tanks? Cho, Singed, Ram, etc.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=RosePhoenix] I don't think he felt insulted. I think he felt it funny that someone else was implying a superior position while views are being traded. [/quote] More like mind blown that he can't even understand the simple points being made, yet he clearly thinks he understands what jungling is. He keeps mentioning Shyvanna in tournaments, that Shyvanna did BOTH counterjungling AND ganking ALL the time. Why do you counter jungle? You counterjungle when you can steal objectives such as buffs (Very strong) or when there is NOTHING better to do than take a bit of exp and 100 gold or so (Something to do if you have a fast clearing jungler and you see a gank go down but really not a big deal) You keep mentioning that you stated to pick a ganker when confronted by a jungler like Shyvanna. That does NOT counter Shyvanna. How can you even insinuate that? The reason I'm not answering some of your statements is because they're absurd, and even when I do answer them and try to discuss them with logic, you don't wanna play ball. So I get exhausted with your ridiculous logic. Look. Let's do this step by step. This can be so easy. 1; Why do you think power clearing junglers afford map control, because you do refer to them as "Control" junglers, right? 2; Shyvanna doesn't have to be a devastating ganker to be an effective one. She does SHIT tons of damage instantly with burnout, auto attack and q. Because she clears so fast, she can gank very often. (You should be ganking lanes, I don't care what jungler you're playing. If you spend your lane phase without attacking a lane, and just dancing around in a forest with dogs and golems, you're a bad jungler, and you need to rewatch the videos you saw with M5's Shyvanna because she does gank in addition to counterjungling and clearing her own jungle.) Her speed means that while each gank is less effective as a stand alone occurrence, because she can fly through the jungle so fast, she's got the opportunity to gank [i]often[/i]. I don't know how familiar you are with lanes, but if you chunk a guy for 1/3 of his hp or 1/2 of his HP, that can win a lane. It might not always, but it can, the kill is not always the objective, it could take you 10 seconds of your time to win your mate his lane, just by walking up and busting one combo that Shyvanna gets pretty much for free due to her move speed. This is why I'm face palming so hard, it's like you've got these champions so categorized in your mind that you've forgotten there are some basic dynamics in every game that will always be true. 3; You don't seem to think ganking is the epitome of the jungler. How can that be possible? If one team has an active ganker, it can cause every lane (Or at least one lane) to lose. You can say that it's the laners fault for not playing defensive, and that would have been a different story if you pick a control jungler and the lanes have to play carefully while you farm, but that makes no sense. The ganking junglers force three lanes to play back and play carefully. "Control junglers" (This is how I view your perception of a control jungler, correct me if this is wrong) clear jungle and gank when they can, but try to puncish by stealing objectives and jungle camps. What's better? And more importantly, what -really- offers more control? The jungler who causes everyone's play style to change, if you ask me. With a jungler who doesn't gank often, every lane has to play passive, which guarantees every lane on your opponent's team farm, and potentially allows opponents to go aggressive and bag kills. Transversely, with an aggressive ganky jungler, every lane gets to play aggressive and your team is guaranteed the farm and potential kills? And the secret irony is, champions like Udyr and Shyvanna secretly do both things, and that's where you're not getting it. This is where I'm finding myself at a brick wall trying to explain how fast clearing ENABLES good ganking, but I'm finding myself short on words here. Does ANYBODY understand what I'm saying? I feel like I must be losing my mind. I also feel like it's so simple and easy to understand that I must be getting trolled.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] 1; Basically, Duff thinks it's impossible to counter pick a jungler and that you shouldn't waste your time and just counter pick lanes. I, on the other hand, believe it's more than possible to counter pick junglers, and the correct response to a control jungler is a ganking jungler. 2; Just because a jungler doesn't gank doesn't mean they aren't impacting on the game. Of course, you should gank, but not all the time. Bot lane's usually impossible to gank if well warded as most junglers too, you can only sometimes sneak into the brush. [/quote] See you don't listen. I said TRUNDLE. I even specifically disagreed with this statement beforehand and you said it again, lol, thanks to Rose for pointing that out. Again, you talk about what I'm doing and are not aware of what YOU are doing in this thread. I said you can't counterpick TRUNDLE. And I said it's -usually- not WORTH it to counter pick a jungler. Not that it isn't possible. You don't even take the time to understand what I'm saying, and act astonished when I give up trying to deal with you. It's possible to counter some junglers, but not all of them, and even when you can, it's just not usually worth it to try to counter the jungler. Even more in the day and age of gp10 junglers. Philo/Hogs everywhere in the woods, what's the bother trying to shut down a jungler? And if your counter to the jungler is picking a good ganker, then good, you're finally doing what you should have been doing all along in every game anyway. Junglers in League act as catalysts right now for action, in the higher echelons of play, that is their primary functionality (Not their only functionality, but their primary functionality) Lanes tend to play passively until jungler shows up, then shit goes down. If you don't have a jungler capable of making life miserable in lane phase, that's a problem, seeing as there's so many who can and still be great late game.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Wintermond] [img=http://www.ponypic.com/i/M3esR.gif] [/quote] +rep[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]Despite the fact you keep mixing up your pronouns between "he" and "you", I'll assume you mean me even still. "that Shyvanna did BOTH counterjungling AND ganking ALL the time." Oh come on there were very, VERY few ganks. Even when Diamond played Lee he played him as a (very good) control jungler with but a few ganks. He counterjungled all the time and ganked occasionally. You counter jungle for a few reasons - 1. To deprive enemy jungler of XP and gold 2. To catch them with their 'pants down' and go for a kill 3. To steal buffs Getting a kill on a jungler is just as good as getting a kill in a lane, and indirectly stopping kills by forcing their jungler to be underlevelled is also good. Think of the big picture, not just "YEAH KILL NOW MUST KILL LANES". "That does NOT counter Shyvanna." [citation needed] If you're not effected by counter jungling and the enemy jungler out levelling you then you have nullified their play style. You haven't presented an argument as to why it doesn't. If it's so glaringly obvious in your enigmatic knowledge then please enlighten me. "Why do you think power clearing junglers afford map control, because you do refer to them as "Control" junglers, right?" For one that's not how you use a semi colon, I told you that last time but clearly you weren't taking note. For two that sentence doesn't make sense at all, "Why do you think power clearing junglers afford map control" is such an absurd statement. No wonder I 'don't understand' what you think you're saying. Assuming you mean "Why do you think power clearing junglers have excellent map control?", then yes, because they go around the map a lot. This has nothing to do with ganking. The fact they can counterjungle and ward as they're doing it also adds to their prowess. "Shyvanna doesn't have to be a devastating ganker to be an effective one. She does SHIT tons of damage instantly with burnout, auto attack and q." Of course she does. Have fun actually getting up to the target though. You can simply stroll away if you're not mentally deficient. Of course a kill isn't the sole purpose of a gank, but a gank that does nothing might as well not be a gank at all. Of course you should gank at opportune moments, but you shouldn't dedicate your life to ganking this one lane at every waking moment. "You don't seem to think ganking is the epitome of the jungler. How can that be possible?" The reason people jungle is - 1. Create a new solo lane 2. Buff control 3. Map control 4. Can get the XP and gold from jungle creeps 5. Unpredictability through ganks Ganking is a very small part of why you pick a jungler. People do it a lot, as they should, but it's not the reason you pick them or the roaming meta would still exist. The definition of a control jungler - Someone who exerts control upon both jungles, pressures the enemy jungler, and creates more map control. Usually, junglers such as Lee Sin can get much of their control from being able to duel exceptionally, and will be able to get kills through that. If your perfect world scenario were true, and picking a ganking jungler alone would mean people sit in a lane and farm all day long, why oh why do lanes ever get kills in tournament play, especially against champions such as Maokai who's picked all the time by US teams? If anything playing passively allows for you to get kills. If you're next to your turret, you can't be hit without repercussion. If you're next to your turret, you have more room to chase. If you're next to your turret, your jungler has more room to gank. Fast clearing of course allows for gank opportunities, but definitely not good ones, and (as I've said many times before but you simply can't understand it) you'd be better off simply taking the jungle. It doesn't directly help your lane but if you take a step back and see the big picture, it does, a LOT, in the long run.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]That's pretty much what I thought you'd say. Alright, we're done here.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla]How do you counter trundle jungle. Pick a good jungler, like nocturne or lee sin. /thread.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=DuffTime] See you don't listen. I said TRUNDLE. I even specifically disagreed with this statement beforehand and you said it again, lol, thanks to Rose for pointing that out. Again, you talk about what I'm doing and are not aware of what YOU are doing in this thread. I said you can't counterpick TRUNDLE. [/quote] You can counterpick every jungler. You counterpick a control jungler with a ganking jungler. Without you disproving this argument (you've always veered off into why ganking junglers are the best or something without saying why that doesn't mean they counter control junglers) then I'm going to stick to it because I don't think you can disprove it. [quote=DuffTime] And I said it's -usually- not WORTH it to counter pick a jungler. Not that it isn't possible. You don't even take the time to understand what I'm saying, and act astonished when I give up trying to deal with you. It's possible to counter some junglers, but not all of them, and even when you can, it's just not usually worth it to try to counter the jungler. [/quote] I bet you're one of these players that tries to counterjungle more if they see an obscure pick? It is completely worth it. Counterpicking in the jungle is as valid as elsewhere. You pick to the situation like any other lane. Countering play styles is important for any champion. Please present a counter argument as to why it isn't without just saying "TRUNDLE DUELS WELL LOL" like you have done before. [quote=DuffTime] Even more in the day and age of gp10 junglers. Philo/Hogs everywhere in the woods, what's the bother trying to shut down a jungler? [/quote] GP10 doesn't give XP. However GP10 junglers are usually members of the ganking triad, like Maokai and Jarvan. There's not as much point trying to shut down a ganking jungler, is there?! [quote=DuffTime] And if your counter to the jungler is picking a good ganker, then good, you're finally doing what you should have been doing all along in every game anyway. [/quote] Lol. [quote=DuffTime] Junglers in League act as catalysts right now for action, in the higher echelons of play, that is their primary functionality (Not their only functionality, but their primary functionality) Lanes tend to play passively until jungler shows up, then shit goes down. If you don't have a jungler capable of making life miserable in lane phase, that's a problem, seeing as there's so many who can and still be great late game. [/quote] In the higher, higher echelon, M5 are not caring of ganks and just starting fights in the jungle. Considering these guys won IEM, I'd say they know a little more than you about their own level of play. They do make stuff happen. Whether it be long term or short term, they do. A Shyvana with red buff can hurt a lane greatly, of course, that Shyvana can also steal enemy camps and leave their jungler unable to gank due to lack of levels. It's a trade off either way.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Temzilla] How do you counter trundle jungle. Pick a good jungler, like nocturne or lee sin. /thread. [/quote] Are you implying Trundle is a bad jungler? He's definitely better than Nocturne, in general. Yes, Duff, despite the fact Nocturne has better ganks.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] Please present a counter argument as to why it isn't without just saying "TRUNDLE DUELS WELL LOL" like you have done before. [/quote] I never once said this. You are fantastically ignorant. [quote=Xenasis] Are you implying Trundle is a bad jungler? He's definitely better than Nocturne, in general. Yes, Duff, despite the fact Nocturne has better ganks. [/quote] Again, astonishingly ignorant. I think Nocturne is FAR below Trunde. You're just hilarious. In fact your ability to comprehend what people are saying is probably among the worst I've ever encountered on the internet. Or you're a massive troll. You're probably a troll tbh.[/quote]