Who counters Trundle in the jungle?

[quote=Phoenix0000ff]I personally think you came off as insulting. It's also kind of distasteful to draw out and make a spectacle of an argument when it's not on topic. x.x Maybe you should take it to private messages I think the title Who counters Trundle [color=#008000]in the jungle[/color] suggests picking a hero to duel trundle in his jungle. This is bad dota I don't think anyone disagrees on that. Both you and Duff and probably any logical fella would say go for the lanes. Duff says "counter pick the lanes instead" and you say that's wrong "gank the lanes instead" You see what I'm getting at here? No need to come off condescending when you are almost saying the same thing. I think trundle does ok vs Rammus also. If I remember correctly in some tournaments he was picked specifically to counter Rammus. I don't mean to get personally involved but think of the thread : S What about the poor chaps who think the best way to jungle is to cut 80% of the team out of the picture?[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Phoenix0000ff] I personally think you came off as insulting. It's also kind of distasteful to draw out and make a spectacle of an argument when it's not on topic. x.x Maybe you should take it to private messages [/quote] I've urged him to do as such if he wants to insult me, I've kept my arguments relevant to the thread though, and as such will keep them here. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think the title Who counters Trundle [color=#008000]in the jungle[/color] suggests picking a hero to duel trundle in his jungle. This is bad dota I don't think anyone disagrees on that. Both you and Duff and probably any logical fella would say go for the lanes. Duff says "counter pick the lanes instead" and you say that's wrong "gank the lanes instead" [/quote] I'd disagree. The title mentions jungle in case anybody would think of lane Trundle, which, by the way, has been used in tournaments before and is more viable than you think - Wickd plays it a lot. If he'd wanted to know who can duel Trundle he'd have said "who can duel Trundle?" I think you don't fully understand the argument in play here, though not that I can blame you, it's extremely long winded. Basically, Duff thinks it's impossible to counter pick a jungler and that you shouldn't waste your time and just counter pick lanes. I, on the other hand, believe it's more than possible to counter pick junglers, and the correct response to a control jungler is a ganking jungler. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think trundle does ok vs Rammus also. If I remember correctly in some tournaments he was picked specifically to counter Rammus. [/quote] I'd like to see a link or two, and more insight than the shoutcasters merely saying "THAT MUST BE BECAUSE OF RAMMUS" or something. I don't think he does, since his playstyle of running around stealing everything and duelling everyone is nullified if rather than being in your jungle, you're elsewhere ganking lanes and gaining XP that way rather than relying on your, or their creeps. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] What about the poor chaps who think the best way to jungle is to cut 80% of the team out of the picture? [/quote] This is a very valid method of jungling in some games. If lanes are ungankable and you can counter jungle, you might as well do it. There's a reason Diamondprox wins games, and it's not because of his ganks - for he rarely does as such. Just because a jungler doesn't gank doesn't mean they aren't impacting on the game. Of course, you should gank, but not all the time. Bot lane's usually impossible to gank if well warded as most junglers too, you can only sometimes sneak into the brush.[/quote]

[quote=Phoenix0000ff]I think it's unfair to say diamondprox wins games and ignore the other members of m5. I forgot about lane trundle I'm pretty sure the poster is talking about Jungle Trundle. That didn't occur to me because of the wording of thread. I watch tournaments livestream so I'm not going to look for any replays but trundle is kind of anti tank so you can imagine this type of thing happening. I'm pretty sure duff doesn't think it's "impossible" to counter pick a jungler. I think he thinks it's foolish. I think it's foolish but yes you do get those instances where I suppose your team wants you as a jungler to go beat up the other jungler What a lazy team. x.x[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's unfair to say diamondprox wins games and ignore the other members of m5. I forgot about lane trundle I'm pretty sure the poster is talking about Jungle Trundle. That didn't occur to me because of the wording of thread. I watch tournaments livestream so I'm not going to look for any replays but trundle is kind of anti tank so you can imagine this type of thing happening. [/quote] He doesn't ignore them, per se, I guess I could have worded that better. The fact of the matter is, though, he'll only ever gank once or maybe twice a game and simply counterjungle and farm for most of the game. Trundle can be used as a good counter to tanky DPS, but RAMMUS himself can't be stopped by Trundle, once the taunt is down on your carry then your carry is likely dead if Cleanse/QSS isn't handy, though if it's someone like Jarvan who will likely have a slow or something (but a long CD on his hard CC), splitting them up with pillar then stealing the resistances or whatever can be beneficial. A pillar won't stop a Rammus flashing into your carry, though. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I'm pretty sure duff doesn't think it's "impossible" to counter pick a jungler. I think he thinks it's foolish. [/quote] Well he'd be implying it would be impossible to successfully counterpick a jungler, which is the same thing, give or take. [quote=Phoenix0000ff] I think it's foolish but yes you do get those instances where I suppose your team wants you as a jungler to go beat up the other jungler What a lazy team. x.x [/quote] Counterpicking in terms of jungling isn't just counterjungling. Take a ganking jungler for example. If your team has a ganking jungler you likely won't push very much in hope of ganks, leaving farming junglers to farm away and (as they are usually very good at) countergank. Often, farming junglers will have very high damage but little to no CC, and as such using them to countergank is a good idea. Think of Olaf for this scenario, though he's not picked in the jungle all that much any more, counterganking with Olaf gets you a lot of damage, more than the enemy's gank, making him a good pick against ganking junglers. Counterpicks in the jungle aren't like lane counterpicks, and tend to look more at the grand scheme of things than a particular champion vs a particular champion.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing][quote = Xenasis] Basically, Duff thinks it's impossible to counter pick a jungler and that you shouldn't waste your time and just counter pick lanes. I, on the other hand, believe it's more than possible to counter pick junglers, and the correct response to a control jungler is a ganking jungler. [/quote] [quote=DuffTime] You can counterpick a jungler, but generally it isn't worth it. That was my statement. I was speaking specifically about Trundle when saying that it's almost impossible. [/quote] o_o Just sayin. I personally am not sure about this jungle business because I'm not that good of a jungler.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]It's possible to counterpick every jungler and every type of jungler. The fact that your counterpick would be unsuccessful (or not worth it) also makes it 'impossible', per se. If a champion was THE strongest champion in the game (for example), trying to counterpick them would be both impossible and not worth it.[/quote]

[quote=Svingas]Wow, the size of this thread doubled since I went to sleep last night. I didn't realize how important one word in the title could be. I guess I should have added the word role to the end. Nonetheless, LOOK AT THE MONSTER I HAVE CREATED!!! [quote=Wintermond] [img=http://www.ponypic.com/i/M3esR.gif] [/quote][/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Svingas] I guess I should have added the word role to the end. [/quote] Well I'm glad you did mean that rather than duelling![/quote]

[quote=koksei]lol dat thread:D[/quote]

[quote=Svingas]Except for maybe the first couple levels there are no duels in the jungle. There are little skirmishes because one or both teams will show up and join in. Unless your laners are too focused on landing those last hits to notice.[/quote]