A Flash Free Season Three!

[quote=Darcurse]Cheating also works. That's why cheating is anything near "good"? Imagine anything you'd ever called OP in any kind of competetive gaming. That also worked. That's the reason it should stay that way and ppl should keep using it? It's your logic that seems a bit flipped.[/quote]

[quote=Xeronn][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=MyRepublic] If a plan is stupid but it works it wasn't stupid. Likewise if you make a bad play, but it works it wasn't bad. Flash makes it work. That doesn't mean that a "bad play worked" it means that a plan that involved flash worked. You're so bassackwards with your logic. [/quote] If you don't have anything useful to contribute; don't say anything at all then. Oh just for the record: The fact [[Flash]] makes it work is the issue here. [/quote] Buffing and nerfing pretty much all of the champions in LoL to compensate for removing [[Flash]] would be too much work for Riot. It just wouldn't be an option for them.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]Honestly removing Flash is an exceptionally dumb idea. I'm not calling you dumb GMD, but the idea itself clearly is. As are your ideas to compensate for Flash being removed. You say it's a "get out of jail free card" well last I checked when you got that card it worked 100% of the time in Monopoly. Now if you look at the summoner spell [[Flash]] and the people using it, you see this delightful thing happen, people make mistakes. They misuse Flash and all of a sudden their "get out of jail free card" decided not to work properly. It is not 100% guaranteed to work as you intend it to offensively or defensively. It promotes aggressive play because it acts as a safety net. That is the idea of a safety net...The minute you remove it you'll see people passive as kittens. Your propositions to compensate champions if Flash is removed doesn't change the "meta" it changes the entire game. There is a difference; the "meta" is the general template utilized in a game. For League it's Solo top/jungle/solomid/duo bot. Your idea would overstep the meta and completely change the play style of a number of champions which directly changes the game but most likely would do little to nothing to the current meta. Removing Flash then changing every champion to make up for it (which would take years btw to properly balance) is as absurd as the idea that "removing flash will promote aggressive play". Here are the direct issues with removing Flash (which I've already stated but I'll reiterate): -It's too engrained in League now. To remove it entirely would do more harm than good (the good it would do being none in my opinion). By removing Flash you single handily handicap junglers like Skarner, Udyr, Riven, Nocturne who need an additional gap closer to prevent easily being kited. Then don't forget how this effects the ADCs without an escape (Draven/Varus/Sivir) and basically all the AP mids now have no safety from jungle ganks. - Removing Flash would not promote aggressive play. The reason people play aggressive is because they calculate their ability to get away with/make a play in a situation. Without Flash people would simply farm passively to avoid feeding or falling behind because they get ganked. -Removing Flash makes anyone with a built in gap closer a prime pick over anyone without. That isn't to say champs without gap closer wouldn't be played but in short this makes a jungler like Maokai infinitely more powerful than he is now....Not only would he be able to [[Twisted Advance]] on you with no chance to avoid it/flash to safety with him in toe, but you're forced to sit and eat his damage courtesy of no instantaneous escape. -Giving every champion without a gap closer a MS buff in their kit...Well I already told you the junglers who would suffer from this idea, now you're going to spit in their eye by giving everyone they want to gank a free kite skill? Need I say "dumb"? -Replacing Flash with an item, well now everyone HAS to get this item so they can play like they do now or "keep up" with those who buy it.....Now you have an item that people will almost assuredly pick up, then you'll start calling the item "Toxic" and say how you dislike it because it does the exact same thing as Flash...."But people won't have to get it", well people right now don't "have" to take Flash. But why wouldn't you when your opponent almost surely will have it too. Now you're on even footing at level 1. In short removing Flash while to YOU might fix problems YOU have with it. It creates bigger more hazardous problems for the rest of the population. No one ever forced you to take Flash, no one ever has (probably) and no one is now. To take the time now and bitch about it after ~2 seasons (no idea when you started playing LoL) is asinine. I respect your opinion that it is (to you) a "bad summoner", and I disagree with you about that completely. I also disagree with your ideas to change/fix the spell by removing it/replacing it with something else. The way it works now is adequate and balanced. Everyone has access to it, but no one is forced to use it. People that do may bank on it to save them/let them go aggro, that's exactly what a summoner spell is for. An additional support skill to help the player. If you out play the enemy but they burn their Flash to kill you, guess what, that's what the spell was meant for. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's "broken". It's (Flash) a calculated cost that people use in their play style. If you're not taking into account the enemies summoner's you're missing out on a layer of the game.... Sorry for the rant, just thought I'd make sure there are ample opinions for both sides of this. (My side being "for Flash")[/quote]

[quote=CrimsonSkyz]I'm half n half for [[flash]]. It saved my life a bunch of times but it also saved a lot of enemies lives from me. Good: Dodging the [[bandage toss]] that could have secured the enemy a kill on me. Bad: Getting into a good position with [[nunu]] and using [[absolute zero]]. Then watching as almost everyone on the enemy team just [[flash]] out and live o-o...[/quote]

[quote=Hyogetaki Hisame][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=MyRepublic] If a plan is stupid but it works it wasn't stupid. Likewise if you make a bad play, but it works it wasn't bad. Flash makes it work. That doesn't mean that a "bad play worked" it means that a plan that involved flash worked. You're so bassackwards with your logic. [/quote] If you don't have anything useful to contribute; don't say anything at all then. Oh just for the record: The fact [[Flash]] makes it work is the issue here. [/quote] No offense, but he actually said something EXTREMELY important. You've been saying the whole day that flash is a no brainer. Well, actually a plan that involves flashes is in no way a no brainer, since it was planed. The Ammumu who flash ult you? He planed it. The Olaf who wot first blood and flashed through his escape route? He planed it. The Alistar who flash Pulverise head butt? He planned it The Skarner who flash ult your Vayne? He planed it. The Shen who flash shadow dash? He planed it. The Sona who flash crescendo? She planed it. The Morgana who flash ultimate? She planed it. The Maokai who flash twisted advance? He planed it. In every single case, the player actually planed the play, and executed it to perfection, it is actually your fault for staying at flash range from him when you knew he can execute such a combo.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]I still go with [[flash]] not being usable while you're being hit by damage from an enemy champion (not enemy unit: champions only) and it being canceled by snares/stuns/charm/taunt. Consequences: - Promotes strategic play (proper warding without a 100% feel of helplessness); - Promotes pre-emptive usage of the spell: (for aggressiveness, for fleeing some ability animations such as [[bandage toss]]); - Forces people to consider harder how to prevent others from using [[flash]] in order to provide placement of AoE ults or other effects (risking to lose positioning in order to attack the target you want to cancel); - It does favor DoT damage; - People will remember there are other summoner spells out there; HOWEVER this nerf or removing [[flash]] will favor some champs. Not always you're "bad positioned" in order to eat [[The Equalizer]]: that spell simply has a huge range and a good coverage.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Hyogetaki Hisame] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=MyRepublic] If a plan is stupid but it works it wasn't stupid. Likewise if you make a bad play, but it works it wasn't bad. Flash makes it work. That doesn't mean that a "bad play worked" it means that a plan that involved flash worked. You're so bassackwards with your logic. [/quote] If you don't have anything useful to contribute; don't say anything at all then. Oh just for the record: The fact [[Flash]] makes it work is the issue here. [/quote] No offense, but he actually said something EXTREMELY important. You've been saying the whole day that flash is a no brainer. Well, actually a plan that involves flashes is in no way a no brainer, since it was planed. The Ammumu who flash ult you? He planed it. The Olaf who wot first blood and flashed through his escape route? He planed it. The Alistar who flash Pulverise head butt? He planned it The Skarner who flash ult your Vayne? He planed it. The Shen who flash shadow dash? He planed it. The Sona who flash crescendo? She planed it. The Morgana who flash ultimate? She planed it. The Maokai who flash twisted advance? He planed it. In every single case, the player actually planed the play, and executed it to perfection, it is actually your fault for staying at flash range from him when you knew he can execute such a combo. [/quote] It is planned but still a no-brainer. Getting in range to land an ultimate without the use of [[Flash]] requires strategy and tactics. With [[Flash]] it's just "press F/D and Win!". This kind of mindset isn't something I like and want to be promoted in a strategic game.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Hyogetaki Hisame] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=MyRepublic] If a plan is stupid but it works it wasn't stupid. Likewise if you make a bad play, but it works it wasn't bad. Flash makes it work. That doesn't mean that a "bad play worked" it means that a plan that involved flash worked. You're so bassackwards with your logic. [/quote] If you don't have anything useful to contribute; don't say anything at all then. Oh just for the record: The fact [[Flash]] makes it work is the issue here. [/quote] No offense, but he actually said something EXTREMELY important. You've been saying the whole day that flash is a no brainer. Well, actually a plan that involves flashes is in no way a no brainer, since it was planed. The Ammumu who flash ult you? He planed it. The Olaf who wot first blood and flashed through his escape route? He planed it. The Alistar who flash Pulverise head butt? He planned it The Skarner who flash ult your Vayne? He planed it. The Shen who flash shadow dash? He planed it. The Sona who flash crescendo? She planed it. The Morgana who flash ultimate? She planed it. The Maokai who flash twisted advance? He planed it. In every single case, the player actually planed the play, and executed it to perfection, it is actually your fault for staying at flash range from him when you knew he can execute such a combo. [/quote] It is planned but still a no-brainer. Getting in range to land an ultimate without the use of [[Flash]] requires strategy and tactics. With [[Flash]] it's just "press F/D and Win!". This kind of mindset isn't something I like and want to be promoted in a strategic game. [/quote] try looking at it from a practicality stand point, no one is ever going to use galio if he can't initiate with a flash+ult.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]Nothing wrong with a bit of discussion, but no need to discuss the same thing multiple times guys.....[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][b]To All: [/b]I never stated that removing [[Flash]] promotes agressive play necessarily; it promotes smart and strategic play! @Jeffy: [list] [*] Just because people fail with it doesn't make it not strong/OP/broken. I've seen people fail with [[Rengar]] pre-nerf and I've seen people fail with [[Vayne]] when she was released. etc. [*] I didn't introduce the term 'meta' for this subject; other people did and I just responded to that. Do not blame me for that. [*] [[Nocturne]] and [[Riven]] (if she is jungled in the first place) are more often than not ran with [[Exhaust]] as second spell. Also, why would you assume they need [[Flash]]? [*] Many champions (including most ADC's) definitely need compensation for the [[Flash]] removal/rework. I'm saying that is necessary and you say the same thing; it probably won't happen but it's possible for Riot to do so. I'm talking about possibilities not if they would do it or not. [*] [quote=Jeffy40Hands]Giving every champion without a gap closer a MS buff in their kit...[/quote] Never said this; I simply gave an example for [[Malzahar]]. It was a harmless example nothing more. I don't even know why you would keep mentioning this honestly. [*] [[Flash]] as an item would make getting [[Flash]] having a negative effect. Not everyone needs it. If there was an item, champions like [[Lee Sin]] or [[Nidalee]] probably wouldn't waste an item slot on it. [*] I don't say it is a "bad summoner" at all; I'm saying it's too good! In the current "meta" (there is that word again) about everyone is forced to take [[Flash]] because the only sort of counter to it is [[Flash]] itself. Other summoner spells have other counters than themselves which creates a variety; [[Flash]] is a must! [*] Everything that is used a lot or played a lot is considered broken or OP pretty quickly. Examples are [[Deathfire Grasp]], [[Ezreal]], [[Gragas]], [[Zyra]]. [[Flash]] is picked on at least 8 summoners per match every game! About every guide states that [[Flash]] is mandatory; we all know it but we don't want to do anything about it as no one sees the downside of it. [/list] For everyone who might think otherwise: I'm happy to discuss anything with you, explain my thoughts, read yours, I think it's a very interesting discussion. I do not like, however, that people twist my words and tell that I said things which I never said.[/quote]