A Flash Free Season Three!

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]Where is the logic in believing that Flash is a purely meant as an offensive summoner? I don't hear you complaining about Ghost being used to escape ganks. Or Exhaust to slow down an enemy so you can run away? Or Heal baiting? All I see is "Flash is bad mmmk" but you're not acknowledging the fact that a majority of summoners act or can act similarly to the way Flash is. Let's hear why you aren't chasing down other summoner spells. Aside from "Flash is instant" I can't see much more to deferentiate from ghost/exhaust/ignite. But that's me. And I'm just curious not trying to attack you here, just wondering why you feel Flash is some how "game breaking" to the point of it needing to be removed when other summoners could fit your description as "game breaking". Or that's what I'm reading...[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]^ [[Ghost]] is "canceled" by [[ehxaust]]. I learned this the bad way, by taking [[ghost]] on rumble and facing a [[darius]] (blind pick), I ended up getting pre-emptively exhausted, eating damage, trying to run, getting aprehended and dying to [[noxian guillotine]]. Flash would've taken me out the second exhaust went down. Better yet, flash could've saved my ass even exhausted, provided I would insta W + R darius so he gtfo. [[Heal]] doesn't get you out of a bad situation, it may save you while you run. It's usually used to bait, and people who do it usually also run [[flash]] just in case. It also has reduced effectiveness if you get [[ignite]]d. [[Exhaust]] only disengages up to one target. [[Flash]] has the possibility of mass disengage, ignores CC effects if you cast it as the CC took effect, making you get cc'ed AFTER the blink (none of the other summoner spells does this). Examples: people can flash just as they are rooted/snared and they will eat that effect after the blink. GMD never said Flash was meant as an offensive summoner. Flash's offensive uses have been mentioned only when stating that a no-flash meta would create a sort of "turtle laning" environment, which I sort of agree with. None of what I said means that I agree with the full removal of [[Flash]]; it just shows it's extremely effective at saving one's ass, more so then all the summoner's which you mentioned. I do agree that flash could take another nerf (said it 1000 times throughout the thread), even cancelation through non-slow CC would do, or turning it into a dash.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]Pretty much what FalseoGod said. [[Flash]] has no counter and is an insta-blink. All other summoner spells are countered by other summoner spells and are nullified by themselves. [[Flash]] is nullified by [[Flash]] as a best-case scenario and has no counters. [indent][[Heal]] countered by [[Ignite]] [[Exhaust]] countered by [[Cleanse]] [[Ignite]] countered by [[Cleanse]] [[Cleanse]] countered by [[Heal]] (purely based on a 1v1 situation, [[Heal]] doesn't strictly counter the effect of [[Cleanse]] ofc) [[Surge]] countered by [[Exhaust]] [[Ghost]] countered by [[Exhaust]] [[Promote]] countered by [[Smite]][/indent] When it comes to the summoner spells I don't like the system of it but we all can agree on the fact that [[Flash]] is the best summoner spell atm. As said before, I don't really hate the offensive [[Flash]] play but I think the defensive [[Flash]] play is rather silly and encourages players to play more careless.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][[ghost]] actually works quite nicely against Flash, provided you can survive the time it takes to kick in.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Luther3000] [[ghost]] actually works quite nicely against Flash, provided you can survive the time it takes to kick in. [/quote] Overall it works but usually people [[Flash]] past walls and that is something [[Ghost]] cannot do.[/quote]

[quote=NinjaGinge][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=NinjaGinge] Lol, I'll restate a tad here but also extend just slightly. I hope this adds some degree to the discussion because despite the brick wall it's at now this has been a very good discussion imo. ^__^ I truly and honestly would not be against this if it wasn't already so ground into the game, and quite frankly I think Riot likes it where it is. [list] [*]The number of champions who would need to be retooled and/or (because both will happen without a doubt) lose viability entirely would be absurd. Sooooo much work for Riot and soooo many mad players who are now without a number of fun and effective strategies regarding their favorite champions/roles. [*]Way more passive play. Look at the other MOBAs, without out this universally accessible skill the lack of forgiveness creates ultra careful play that requires extreme strategy, care and attention in order to be aggressive in comparison to LoL. Riot knows this. Idk if anyone remembers when riot made the changes to minion damage and heal nerfs. There's also the stealth rework and the list goes on. Riot made all these changes under the banner of "promoting a more aggressive and exciting game." [*]Being able to use it to get out of bad situations is something that helps new players learn their limits without costing them everything. By popping flash to get out of their noobtastic predicament they are penalized by not being able to use that ability if they make a mistake again or encounter a situation where it was needed. Having a game that is fast paced, strategic and a little forgiving is Riot's basis for having one of the most successful PC games on the planet. [*] As for high level play it's existence allows for some really phenomenal plays and it adds a lot to the viewing pleasure of the game. I can honestly tolerate the occasional "get-out-of-jail-esq" usage if I get to keep seeing those plays that make me go "OH SHIIIIIIIIIT". Losing that factor would really damage LoL as a spectator e-sport. [/list] Even IF anyone here was going to come to an agreement on this I think it's very clear that [[Flash]] is here to stay for these reasons alone. The style of gameplay its existence allows for is a major factor in Riot's success and getting rid of it really just isn't an option for Riot as a production team or as a company. Also, I'm really tired so I probably derped hard somewhere in writing this. Let me know so I can fix it xP [/quote] Seems like a solid explanation. However, a change to make it less strong would still be possible without huge inconveniences imo [/quote] I wouldn't be against some slight flash nerf, though it's already been done once before. >.< EDIT: Lol, i'm kind of surprised this thread is still working so hard against itself after my last post. Despite that this argument can run in circles forever it was kind of a nail in the coffin for the overall proposition XP[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]Problem is many ppl continue saying the same things without reacting to other statements made, ofc this can only run in circles this way: - Many here still think that "removing" Flash (in a "just throw it out" way) is the only way that was proposed as a change. - Its kinda ****ing arrogant to come up with stuff like "Flash counters Flash", "Plan = Plan even if Flash is a neccesity", etc. when multiple ppl already said that THIS is part of the problem. You definitely can have an opinion that it's not, but simply scrubbing that argument of like it never existed... where is the worth arguing with a brickwall? - Ppl should start to realize that noone either here wants to stop aggressive play or damns Flash for being a defensive tool. It's the sole problem that Flash is STILL so fuckign strong that it failsafes you after doing a mistake/an action that should have killed you. Take MyRepublic's example: Noone here from the "Everything's fine" fraction doesn't see any kind of problem with Flash being the only tool in the whole game that can save his sorry ass at this point? Many already said that normally you can't do this because of wards/careful enemies... so that means you guys admit that Flash roflstomps good enemies? Nice... rly.[/quote]

[quote=Hyogetaki Hisame][quote=Darcurse] - Its kinda ****ing arrogant to come up with stuff like "Flash counters Flash", "Plan = Plan even if Flash is a neccesity", etc. when multiple ppl already said that THIS is part of the problem. You definitely can have an opinion that it's not, but simply scrubbing that argument of like it never existed... where is the worth arguing with a brickwall? Take MyRepublic's example: Noone here from the "Everything's fine" fraction doesn't see any kind of problem with Flash being the only tool in the whole game that can save his sorry ass at this point? Many already said that normally you can't do this because of wards/careful enemies... so that means you guys admit that Flash roflstomps good enemies? Nice... rly. [/quote] If Flash saves both my sorry ass in a bad situation and my opponent in the same bad situation, then I'm perfectly fine with that, since we're even. Fact is that any good player should take the timer for the opponents flash once it's burned, assuming the lowest possible CD on it. Also, Flash does NOT Roflstomp good enemies, If I'm being outplayed in lane, well, my flash ain't gonna change anything. Since the good enemy should take my flash into consideration, or else, he's just an average player. Also, I fail to see any arrogance in claiming that flash DOES counter itself in a situation where it was used as a get out of jail card. However, I do ask you to look at the poll and see what the majority of the community actually voted for, 70,1% of the community seems like a fairly huge number.[/quote]

[quote=Kazega]SO with out scrubbing through 20 pages of posts it looks like this topic has been thouroughly looked at and debated. I doubt I have anything to add at this point to argue for keeping flash the way it is, but here it goes: Flash is one of the few things that Riot does to make this game "N00b Friendly." I say this because I once made an argument a while back that Riot tunes this game to high level play. If I had to guess, 90% of the balances are done to better equalize tournament play. Flash is the one thing at just about any level that can amount to a "get out of jail free" card. It's just a simple "oh hey man, that junlger just stepped out of the brush and is behind you. You forgot to ward there, so here have a flash and think about warding next time." (bearing in mind that next time the guy may in fact forget to ward) Taking away flash takes away a fair bit of the dynamic that comes to learning the game of League of Legends. Instead of a frustrating death, the player burns a summoner spell and can't use it again for 3 minutes. Eventually it starts to click in players, provided they are actually trying to learn and not just in it for the fun of it, that players recognize when flashes are used and take advantage of it as much as possible. This begins to put flash in the "first aid" section of the summoner spells with cleanse and Heal, with the expression "'tis better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it" coming to mind In my earlier days, i opted not to use flash. i found it to be a crutch at my experience level and I didn't see the point of it is I played Katarina a lot and thought Shunpo was just as good. Now I still Play Kat religiously and I use flash a lot more because of the utility it gives me. Riot has been looking over summoner spells, and undoubtedly keeping tabs on complaints on them. Flash is fine because Riot says it is fine. If they change it up for Season 3, they will tell us and start testing possible "fixes" for the "problems." Maybe they will find that Flash is too powerful, or that it isn't even needed at all. I don't know for sure, but until then be happy that you got it, and the option to use something else if you so desire.[/quote]

[quote=Darcurse]If you're outplayed in lane a Flash saves your ass at least one time you had to die. No other SS guarantees you that in a way Flash does. A good LoL players takes your Flash into conisderation and than sees that he can do nothing except for picking Flash too. What is the best way to take down someone with Flash? You have to make him waste Flash. You see no problem in these facts, no reason arguing with a brickwall. 70% of Moba comm...? Well, that's the 70% which still didn't even read 1 page of this thread and believe that we're talking about completely removing Flash. Well, either way no point arguing with ppl who scrub of anything with a "I can't see your point, so it doesn't exist!" Only hope Riot's more concerned about gameplay quality than their money in the near future/S3, taking a sledge and fucking tear this wall down. I'm simply getting bored by those "Flash = aggressive play" numbs who watch pro videos all day long and getting excited over average first blood after the 15-20 minute.[/quote]