Riven Theorycrafting

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] @Xenasis: [quote]Just because she has no AP ratios, no mana, and only 10% less than average AD, it could still be an extremely potent item.[/quote] I'm pretty sure this is a contradictory statement... Your ONLY argument for Sheen is that it's really good on everyone else? I'm sorry but, Sheen will [u]not[/u] be potent at all on Riven. Mana = Useless Ap = Useless Proc = below average Every way you look at it, it's an inferior item. There is no redeeming quality to it because Riven was designed around "Sheen being a bad choice". There are BETTER choices no matter how you try to theorycraft towards it. She had FIVE bonus-ad ratios, so a [[Pickaxe]] will actually boost her damage output more then a Sheen will because of her ratios. It'll even boost her survivability because Valor (her shield E spell) scales off AD. [h1](@everyone: ...a shield that scales off AD, isn't that peachy?)[/h1] [color=lime]Oh, and since you asked where I got these numbers from:[/color] Xypherous, the Riot designer who CREATED Riven, is the one whose been saying all this. He's been answering a VAST amount of questions regarding her on the official LoL Forums. Specific things he made very clear: -Riven's inspired by arcade style fighters -Riven's lore originally had her as a Demacian who got exiled for saving Noxian refugees. (Riot decided they had enough cool demacians) -Low base AD -All bonus-ad ratios -All dashes are short (3 Qs + E = about 1000 distance) -She is similar to Ezreal in lore only to an extent; they both wander forsaken lands far from civilization, the difference being Ezreal does it by choice. -She has no sustain -Her kit was made with the intention of making people NOT BUY SHEEN. -Her kit was made to say: BUY AD! -She was best used in jungle fights and small skirmishes. not particularly 1v1, or 5v5, but 2v2 and 3v3 fights. -Xypherous is sad because he always wishes he had more time to tweak a champion design [/quote] Lee Sin's kit was made to say "build AD", but a Sheen is still a good item on him. My argument for Sheen is that the proc is what makes it good. Because we've not seen her numbers or cooldowns yet - there's no reason in speculating about it's usefulness now. Though it might turn out to be bad, you can't say that just from the fact that she has no Mana/AP ratios and from what the designers say about how she should be built. Last time I checked, the recommended items for almost all champions are ridiculously bad. Where exactly are you pulling these absurd numbers from? They've not been released yet by Riot. Could you link these statements? We don't get any reds but Ymir on the EU forums. I doubt he'd have released the cooldowns for her, and EXACT numbers, though. My argument for Sheen was based on the fact that nobody has seen her base stats yet, nobody has seen her cooldowns yet, and nobody has seen everything else. Edit: Oh, and just because Lee Sin, for example, has AD ratios, doesn't mean you build a Pickaxe or BF Sword on him... You'll either build her with a Triforce (which nobody knows is useful yet, because she's not released) or Atmogs.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Xenasis: Lee Sin isn't Riven. You can't compare the two. Especially since Lee Sin wasn't commented on so heavily before his release. Lee Sin wasn't made specifically to avoid Sheen AND he's still got AP ratios going for him. I'm sorry, but it seems everyone on the US Forums already knows a bulk of valuable information regarding Riven that EU does not. Xypherous has answered a massive amount of questions over here; including certain specifics on her base AD and distances of her dash So, unfortunately, your argument isn't valid. And since you refuse to take my word for it... Here, the most relevant points to Xypherous saying "DON'T RUSH SHEEN." FAQ: How would I be able to identify this? Because the thread is actually called "@Xypherous about Sheen/Trinforce and Riven." [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14178986#post14178986][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] [color=#ffff00][B]Note:[/B] Also, I wanted to make Sheen kind of suck on this character. MWAHAHAHA. I mean.. I wanted to encourage her to build more attack damage. *cough*[/color][/quote] [quote][quote]I don't understand. If her Q can be activated three separate times and spaced around her other abilities, how does that make her suck with Sheen? If anything, it seems that she'd be very able to pick up the proc every 2 seconds and a Sheen/Trinforce proc on top of her passive proc every 2 seconds seems devastating. [/quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180174#post14180174][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] A few ways: 1. Her base damage and her base damage scaling is a bit lower than our other other champions - like 10% or so. 2. She has an ultimate that [B]multiplies[/B] your total attack power, making AD an even better buy on her than most champions, so a B.F.Sword will add 54 damage instead of 45 damage while her ultimate is up. 3. Her passive scales [B]ridiculously[/B] off bonus AD - Like 0.5 scaling. 4. All her abilities have AD ratios... including her shield. [/quote] [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180502#post14180502][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Yeah, tri-force is probably good on everyone who is melee and needs the stats. [color=#ffff00]Specifically, I wanted to de-emphasize Sheen from being the go-to item early on.[/color] I think her AD ratios total to about 5 on her basic abilities, so early AD is definitely the way to go. [/quote] [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180652#post14180652][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Again, I agree that Tri-force is probably decent on her because Tri-force is decent on anyone who is melee and needs high mobility (because of the movement speed and the slow proc) not because the Tri-force proc will be high. [color=#ffff00]My major goal was to make de-emphasize Sheen from being the go-to-item[/color], as I wanted to encourage players to build AD and early. [/quote] [quote][quote]edit so if im reading this right then it isnt trinity force is bad, its more of a build a bf sword before sheen or something to that effect? [/quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180652#post14180652][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Yeah. If you can, pick up like a Brutalizer, a Youmu's or a Hexdrinker and then, if you need the mobility and slow, build Zeal and Phage and [color=#ffff00]skip Sheen entirely if you can. [/color] [/quote] Xypherous is Riven's designer - He knows EVERYTHING about the concept and statistics of Riven (and the other champions he's designed - Like Renekton and Orianna [idk if he made others]) These are ALL linked. Click the red underlined word "Xypherous" to be taken to the exact post where the thread is. There is a TON of other Xypherous posts regarding Riven. This DOES NOT include the giant amount of Xypherous posts I gathered onto a thread a week ago. Feel free to browse the US DevTracker, it's only 1~2 days old. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/devtracker.php?g=Riot&page=3 I link to page three in anticipation that they'll get pushed down past page 2 by the time you see this. All in all, Trinity Force could be useful, but Sheen itself is a highly below-average item on Riven. You COULD make use of it, but an AD item (like [[The Brutalizer]]) or utility item (like [[Zeal]] that gives MS) would be a much better purchase. Basically, think of all the answers to: "Why buy Sheen?" - All those answers/aspects got nerfed on Riven during the design-phase. It's like if you kept stacking [[Philosopher's Stone]]s after the gp5 passive was made unique. You'd still get all that health and mana regen, but anyone will tell you you'll end up wasting a ton of gold.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] @Xenasis: Lee Sin isn't Riven. You can't compare the two. Especially since Lee Sin wasn't commented on so heavily before his release. Lee Sin wasn't made specifically to avoid Sheen AND he's still got AP ratios going for him. I'm sorry, but it seems everyone on the US Forums already knows a bulk of valuable information regarding Riven that EU does not. Xypherous has answered a massive amount of questions over here; including certain specifics on her base AD and distances of her dash So, unfortunately, your argument isn't valid. And since you refuse to take my word for it... Here, the most relevant points to Xypherous saying "DON'T RUSH SHEEN." FAQ: How would I be able to identify this? Because the thread is actually called "@Xypherous about Sheen/Trinforce and Riven." [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14178986#post14178986][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] [color=#ffff00][B]Note:[/B] Also, I wanted to make Sheen kind of suck on this character. MWAHAHAHA. I mean.. I wanted to encourage her to build more attack damage. *cough*[/color][/quote] [quote][quote]I don't understand. If her Q can be activated three separate times and spaced around her other abilities, how does that make her suck with Sheen? If anything, it seems that she'd be very able to pick up the proc every 2 seconds and a Sheen/Trinforce proc on top of her passive proc every 2 seconds seems devastating. [/quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180174#post14180174][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] A few ways: 1. Her base damage and her base damage scaling is a bit lower than our other other champions - like 10% or so. 2. She has an ultimate that [B]multiplies[/B] your total attack power, making AD an even better buy on her than most champions, so a B.F.Sword will add 54 damage instead of 45 damage while her ultimate is up. 3. Her passive scales [B]ridiculously[/B] off bonus AD - Like 0.5 scaling. 4. All her abilities have AD ratios... including her shield. [/quote] [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180502#post14180502][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Yeah, tri-force is probably good on everyone who is melee and needs the stats. [color=#ffff00]Specifically, I wanted to de-emphasize Sheen from being the go-to item early on.[/color] I think her AD ratios total to about 5 on her basic abilities, so early AD is definitely the way to go. [/quote] [quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180652#post14180652][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Again, I agree that Tri-force is probably decent on her because Tri-force is decent on anyone who is melee and needs high mobility (because of the movement speed and the slow proc) not because the Tri-force proc will be high. [color=#ffff00]My major goal was to make de-emphasize Sheen from being the go-to-item[/color], as I wanted to encourage players to build AD and early. [/quote] [quote][quote]edit so if im reading this right then it isnt trinity force is bad, its more of a build a bf sword before sheen or something to that effect? [/quote] [url=http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=14180652#post14180652][color=#ff0000][u]Xypherous:[/u][/color][/url] Yeah. If you can, pick up like a Brutalizer, a Youmu's or a Hexdrinker and then, if you need the mobility and slow, build Zeal and Phage and [color=#ffff00]skip Sheen entirely if you can. [/color] [/quote] Xypherous is Riven's designer - He knows EVERYTHING about the concept and statistics of Riven (and the other champions he's designed - Like Renekton and Orianna [idk if he made others]) [/quote] I wish EU got that information... Just FYI - the EU gets absolutely no game devs/champion devs on it's forum, and though I try to check the forums and what not, I can't check both 100% of the time. We only ever really get reds posting in pointless threads too (E.G. Draw a champion in 60s). Lee Sin sounds like Riven from what's been described. Only AD ratios, melee, no mana. Built around abilities rather than auto attacks (like, say, Tryndamere). Also, Lee Sin's W is hardly a "true" AP ratio, especially when the shield is made for mobility and not shielding. Anyway, even so, we've still not seen her cooldowns OR the actual AD ratios. Sure, everything has an AD ratio, but everything of Leona's has AP ratios - that doesn't make her build AP. She'll most likely just be another Atmogs champion though. I'd wager Brutalizer > Warmogs > Atmas will end up being the optimal way to build her. I'll formally apologise, it's not my fault Riot discriminate against the EU :/[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Riot IS a US company. All their best and brightest are over here. Its the individual employee who chooses whether or not they wish to share information. You should make an account for forum-roaming.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] Riot IS a US company. All their best and brightest are over here. Its the individual employee who chooses whether or not they wish to share information. You should make an account for forum-roaming. [/quote] Nevertheless, they've announced multiple times that EU's player base was "vastly bigger". It's annoyed me most that a lot of Riot staff have posted on the EU forums once or twice (E.G. Guinsoo made a thread saying he was going to post more, and answer questions in the thread, waited 25 pages, answered 3 completely stupid questions, and never posted again). I know the US is their natural home, but we need SOMEONE to keep us up to date, and it's not hard to copy and paste information to both forums...[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]I'd build her high end burst/mobility or survival/DPS with 1/2 defensive items. Pure Burst- Mercs/Zerker Zeal Brutalizer IE Ghostblade Vamp Scepter PD Blood Thirster DPS/Survival Mercs Ghostblade IE Phage/FM QSS Atma's It's hard to say without seeing her ratios how much better burst DPS will be opposed to Survival/DPS. Skill order seems like R>Q>E>W E>W depends on the stun duration if it increases or not. Standard combos (without ulti or if you don't need it) would probably be: CQB Start: W-Q-Q-Q-E Stun/Slash1/Slash2/Slash3/Dash To Target/AA Ranged Start E-Q-W-Q-Q Dash To Target/Slash1/Stun/Slash2/Slash3 (ranged start is if you can break up her Q attacks with other abilities) Teamfight E-Q-W-R-Q-Q-R Dash in/Slash1/Stun team/Ulti(for bonus dmg)/Slash2/Slash3 AoE knockbacl/Windslash Of course auto attacking when available to proc the passive as often as possible. (Once again only viable option if you can break up her Q combo with other abilities) That can be modified of course so that you pop your ulti at the onset of a teamfight for the extra damage. But with her dynamic fighting mechanics and her passive you would want to mix it up a bit imo. Popping the ulti at the onset means if they avoid your first set of attacks you just wasted time for no result. So getting into the fight THEN popping your ulti when your damage is ~assured (after the AoE stun probably) would most likely be a safer option. EDIT: Even after reading a lot, I'm still unsure as to how her abilities all link together, if at all. So if my speculations are off don't hold it against me.[/quote]

[quote=Sacull_Kinslayer]One HUGE advantage she will have is early team fights. Her Q is like multiple skills all in one. While everyone else has only 1 ability you will have multiple uses of the same ability. Move speed and attack speed I think will be very useful on her if you can balance that with AD. Marks: AD Seals: Armor Glyphs: MRes or CDR Quints: ArPen/AD/Move speed Doran's Blade will probably be standard starting item. Boots + 3 HP pots might work. Merc Treads / Zerkers Vamp Scepter (Wriggles Lantern perhaps?) PD Brutilizer/Last Whisper BT Maybe AS won't be as vital. Or perhaps no more than Zerkers will be needed. It is all theory for now. And fun the think about.[/quote]

[quote=PotatisFarfar]Atmog's core.[/quote]

[quote=Skrallz]Nah best build I would think for her Start Boots+3 Pots Rush Brutalizer Brut->MercTreads->HexDrinker->BT->Youmuu->FrozenMallet->Atma :) 700 Health, MR, Armor, AND PLENTY AD :)[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][[Mercury's Treads]] AND [[Hexdrinker]]? That seems like an excessive amount of magic resist early game. I was thinking something like: [[The Brutalizer]] -> [[Mercury's Treads]] -> [[Phage]] -> [[B. F. Sword]] -> -> [[Infinity Edge]]? -> [[Youmuu's Ghostblade]] -> [[Frozen Mallet]] -> [[Atma's Impaler]] -> [[Last Whisper]] I haven't decided on my BF sword upgrade, but with Atma's looking so good, the crit-chance would flow together nicely. Only problem with this build is there's absolutely no life steal. Which may not be necessary, but could be better against high sustain comps. Maybe something like this for life steal: (stack doran's blades early if HP is a problem) [[The Brutalizer]] -> [[Berserker's Greaves]] -> [[Vampiric Scepter]] -> [[Youmuu's Ghost blade]] -> [[B. F. Sword]] -> [[The Bloodthirster]] -> [[Banshee's Veil]] -> [[The Bloodthirster]] (2nd) -> [[Last Whisper]] I really think Last Whisper is core, she is suppose to have a sum of 5.0 in AD ratios and probably deals all physical damage. And I don't really like the look of [[The Black Cleaver]] because it's AD is lower then other BF sword upgrades while I feel the on-hit effect would restrict her playstyle as you're always looking to apply the cleaver procs. I take Berserker's greaves to abuse the early life-steal more. If Merc's are needed, can get them after. Banshee's Veil is to compensate for a lack of an early Merc's. Stack bloodthirsters for heavy sustain and AD. (Remember, the point is to have lots of life steal and the point of Riven's design is to stack lots of AD)[/quote]