7.4 Tier List + AMA

[quote=OTGBionicArm][quote=NicknameMy]Why Fervor? It only procs on auto-attacking and Garen doesn't really AA that much, or does your [[garen]] build somehow [[phantom dancer]]? Also, some math at which point [[deathfire touch]] exceeds [[thunderlord's decree]]. [[thunderlord's decree]] damage per second: 0.5-9 + 1% of bonus AD + 0.5% of AP. [[deathfire touch]] damage per second: 2 + 16.66% of bonus AD + 6.66% of bonus AP So if you can constantly proc damage, [[deathfire touch]] is definitly stronger. Now, how long has [[deathfire touch]] to run in order to beat [[thunderlord's decree]] per 20 seconds. For the base damage: 5-90 seconds For the AD: 1.2 seconds For the AP: 1.5 seconds So if you have a decent amount of AP or AD, [[deathfire touch]] is ALWAYS better than [[thunderlord's decree]], even if you just proc it once (even on AoE). Only if you have no damage items at all [[thunderlord's decree]] is better than [[deathfire touch]]. My [[garen]] has with [[the black cleaver]] and [[death's dance]] a good amount of bonus AD, same goes for early with AD runes. So, welp.[/quote] Ferver is nearly always stacked when farming, so assuming you engage trades with auto>Q, and maybe another auto before you start spinning, its a pretty decent addition of damage. As for your maths, this assumes you CAN constantly deal damage, which you often cant. Thunderlords is better for short bursts. So think like, Q, auto, E, thunderlords proc. Pretty decent burst into your spinning, and Garen's endgame is to simply do this combo and ult you to death anyway. He's not a harass machine, which deathfire is tailored to.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]Pretty sure [[deathfire touch]] is bad unless you're building full AD. You have no way to reliably proc it on several champions or poke from a distance. Even if you're building offensively it still seems pretty bad because of the low base damage. Keep in mind it has 6 base damage and only scales off bonus stats, so you get virtually no damage out of it before you actually buy items. [[fervor of battle]] seems okay for the reason OTG stated (easy to keep it stacked in lane phase) but it's still pretty trash outside of that situation since Garen's autoattack frequency is one of the lowest in the game due to his spin taking up a lot of time in fights. It's also not too easy to stack outside of lane phase. I'm pretty sure [[Thunderlord's Decree]] is going to be your go-to offensive keystone since Garen's trades depend on cooldown anyway. Just trade every 20s (remember it got buffed this patch) and it should be more effective than Fervor throughout the game.[/quote]

[quote=Out Of Pancakes][quote=NicknameMy]Why Fervor? It only procs on auto-attacking and Garen doesn't really AA that much, or does your [[garen]] build somehow [[phantom dancer]]? Also, some math at which point [[deathfire touch]] exceeds [[thunderlord's decree]]. [[thunderlord's decree]] damage per second: 0.5-9 + 1% of bonus AD + 0.5% of AP. [[deathfire touch]] damage per second: 2 + 16.66% of bonus AD + 6.66% of bonus AP So if you can constantly proc damage, [[deathfire touch]] is definitly stronger. Now, how long has [[deathfire touch]] to run in order to beat [[thunderlord's decree]] per 20 seconds. For the base damage: 5-90 seconds For the AD: 1.2 seconds For the AP: 1.5 seconds So if you have a decent amount of AP or AD, [[deathfire touch]] is ALWAYS better than [[thunderlord's decree]], even if you just proc it once (even on AoE). Only if you have no damage items at all [[thunderlord's decree]] is better than [[deathfire touch]]. My [[garen]] has with [[the black cleaver]] and [[death's dance]] a good amount of bonus AD, same goes for early with AD runes. So, welp.[/quote] But the thing is that you won't be able to deal damage during 20 seconds, plus [[deathfire touch]] procs on spells ONLY whereas you can proc [[thunderlord's decree]] with spells AND auto-attacks. Now, let's try something: let's assume we get one [[thunderlord's decree]] vs 1 to 4 [[deathfire touch]] procs and assuming champions only build additional AD or AP but never both at the same time. Those conditions, imho, would cover the most common scenarios. Ranging from 10 to 200 bonus AP or AD, level 6, 12 and 18: Pink squares curve is [[thunderlord's decree]] (TlD), the other ones are 1 to 4 [[deathfire touch]] procs (DfT). X is bonus AP or AD, Y is base damage. AP champion: [spoiler] Level 6: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdun/094fd2d479.png width=600] Level 12: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdwZ/a5e9e77d6e.png width=600] Level 18: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdyM/c69de6e04c.png width=600] [/spoiler] AD champion: [spoiler] Level 6: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdfF/8fe74a617f.png width=600] Level 12: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdka/9e5f75a95a.png width=600] Level 18: [img=http://puu.sh/lxdmS/cb49bfd85e.png width=600] [/spoiler] To sum it up, I'd say: - Thunderlord seems really good on AP champions that autoattack in the mix ([[ekko]], [[fizz]], [[lulu]]?). You need AT LEAST 3 procs of DfT to be sometimes better. [spoiler] At level 6, the even point at 4 procs is 50 AP and at 3 procs is 80 AP. At level 12, 4 procs evens out around 140 AP and 3 procs around 200 AP. At level 18, if you manage to get 4 DfT procs, then DfT only gets better after roughly 225 AP. For 3 procs, it's around 325 AP and around 550 AP for 2 procs. [/spoiler] - Deathfire touch is better for AD champions if you can proc it 3+ times AND if you build a lot of AD. Otherwise, Thunderlord is decent, but you might as well want to take another mastery. EDIT: Even though I did and rechecked the maths, I may have misinterpreted/missed something, feel free to disagree with what I did.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=NicknameMy]Why Fervor? It only procs on auto-attacking and Garen doesn't really AA that much, or does your [[garen]] build somehow [[phantom dancer]]? Also, some math at which point [[deathfire touch]] exceeds [[thunderlord's decree]]. [[thunderlord's decree]] damage per second: 0.5-9 + 1% of bonus AD + 0.5% of AP. [[deathfire touch]] damage per second: 2 + 16.66% of bonus AD + 6.66% of bonus AP So if you can constantly proc damage, [[deathfire touch]] is definitly stronger. Now, how long has [[deathfire touch]] to run in order to beat [[thunderlord's decree]] per 20 seconds. For the base damage: 5-90 seconds For the AD: 1.2 seconds For the AP: 1.5 seconds So if you have a decent amount of AP or AD, [[deathfire touch]] is ALWAYS better than [[thunderlord's decree]], even if you just proc it once (even on AoE). Only if you have no damage items at all [[thunderlord's decree]] is better than [[deathfire touch]]. My [[garen]] has with [[the black cleaver]] and [[death's dance]] a good amount of bonus AD, same goes for early with AD runes. So, welp.[/quote] [[Deathfire Touch]] + [[Phantom Dancer]] + [[Garen]]???????????????? How am I going to play with this massive fucking erection in the way?[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]BTW: Illaoi is by far the most broken champion ever released. Hits you with E -> 60 seconds no longer able to lane. Hits with R -> oneshots whole team.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=NicknameMy]BTW: Illanoi is by far the most broken champion ever released. Hits you with E -> 60 seconds no longer able to lane. Hits with R -> oneshots whole team.[/quote] Or, you know, you could kill some of the tentacles. It's not like they auto-target you and you can't dodge their attacks. They're essentially skillshots that you [b]know[/b] are gonna happen. And as for the ult, just pick someone like [[Sivir]] or [[janna]] for disengage. If the tentacles aren't around, she's not doing a whole lot, lo\l.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]Up until now I only saw Illaoi being crap and pooped on :/ New poppy and her ult tho [url=http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/11/champion-update-poppy-keeper-of-hammer.html#more]Knocked back for ages[/url][/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Illaoi did 1600+ dmaage to me in 1.96 seconds with just a Sterak's Gage and Long Sword 18 minutes into the game, so ya she looks pretty balanced[/quote]

[quote=Thalia Kael][quote=Lugignaf][quote=NicknameMy]BTW: Illanoi is by far the most broken champion ever released. Hits you with E -> 60 seconds no longer able to lane. Hits with R -> oneshots whole team.[/quote] Or, you know, you could kill some of the tentacles. It's not like they auto-target you and you can't dodge their attacks. They're essentially skillshots that you [b]know[/b] are gonna happen. And as for the ult, just pick someone like [[Sivir]] or [[janna]] for disengage. If the tentacles aren't around, she's not doing a whole lot, lo\l.[/quote] Just dodge the spear[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Thalia Kael][quote=Lugignaf][quote=NicknameMy]BTW: Illanoi is by far the most broken champion ever released. Hits you with E -> 60 seconds no longer able to lane. Hits with R -> oneshots whole team.[/quote] Or, you know, you could kill some of the tentacles. It's not like they auto-target you and you can't dodge their attacks. They're essentially skillshots that you [b]know[/b] are gonna happen. And as for the ult, just pick someone like [[Sivir]] or [[janna]] for disengage. If the tentacles aren't around, she's not doing a whole lot, lo\l.[/quote] Just dodge the spear[/quote] just pink ward her tentacles lol[/quote]