Quick stuff based on the info you just mentioned:
Masteries seem fine, runes seem fine, skilling order seem fine.
ER is definitely a lot better than IE on
Ashe as a first item in most cases. IE doesn't give a good power spike unlike previous metas and really only gets you a spike around three items (IE + Runaan + RFC) which only grants you slight dps advantages compared to ER + Runaan + IE, which gives you a lot of substantial benefits like utility and consistent damage immediately after you finish ER and it only scales upward with Zeal / Runaan.
Cleaver simply doesn't fit Ashe right now. You see Cleaver in a lot of ADC builds coupled with Youmuu because it allows for an earlier power spike that simply gives more benefits than the standard builds. Although Cleaver does stack well with Ashe's Q, LW is simply far superior as a late game arpen item vs hard tanks.
That being said, ER, Runaan, IE should be core as the most standard build You can fit in QSS or LW before Runaan if you're behind and need them to survive vs hard cc / deal with tanks. After that the options that should be considered are BT for more straight up dps, LW --> MR vs tanks and healers, Mercurial vs hard CC, GA if you cannot position to maximize dps without getting blown up.
A quick glance at your guide's actual cheatsheet: you have way too many items that aren't good on her and mislabel a lot of items.
- Shiv isn't good (if you REALLY want to go IE + AS + AS you're better off going IE + Runaan + RFC).
- BT and Merc aren't bought primarily for their lifesteal benefits - BT is bought for damage increase and Merc / QSS is bought for cleanse vs hard CC. The rest of stuff are just extras. Merc should be considered in survivability.
- Bork is horrible on Ashe, ER is not bought as a late game item for CDR; it's bought early on for the whole package. ER is horrible as a late game item compared to other DPS items. CDR is not necessary as a stat compared to straight up damage increases.
Masteries seem fine, runes seem fine, skilling order seem fine.
ER is definitely a lot better than IE on
Ashe as a first item in most cases. IE doesn't give a good power spike unlike previous metas and really only gets you a spike around three items (IE + Runaan + RFC) which only grants you slight dps advantages compared to ER + Runaan + IE, which gives you a lot of substantial benefits like utility and consistent damage immediately after you finish ER and it only scales upward with Zeal / Runaan.Cleaver simply doesn't fit
Ashe right now. You see Cleaver in a lot of ADC builds coupled with Youmuu because it allows for an earlier power spike that simply gives more benefits than the standard builds. Although Cleaver does stack well with Ashe's Q, LW is simply far superior as a late game arpen item vs hard tanks.That being said, ER, Runaan, IE should be core as the most standard build You can fit in QSS or LW before Runaan if you're behind and need them to survive vs hard cc / deal with tanks. After that the options that should be considered are BT for more straight up dps, LW --> MR vs tanks and healers, Mercurial vs hard CC, GA if you cannot position to maximize dps without getting blown up.
A quick glance at your guide's actual cheatsheet: you have way too many items that aren't good on her and mislabel a lot of items.
- Shiv isn't good (if you REALLY want to go IE + AS + AS you're better off going IE + Runaan + RFC).
- BT and Merc aren't bought primarily for their lifesteal benefits - BT is bought for damage increase and Merc / QSS is bought for cleanse vs hard CC. The rest of stuff are just extras. Merc should be considered in survivability.
- Bork is horrible on Ashe, ER is not bought as a late game item for CDR; it's bought early on for the whole package. ER is horrible as a late game item compared to other DPS items. CDR is not necessary as a stat compared to straight up damage increases.
Vapora: Ye, thanks, that's why I'm asking other people too - your comment brought it on. Still haven't replied to what you said, but I understand your reasonings. I wanted more information about purchase order, which is what I asked above ^^
Embracing: Thanks for your comments. In terms of people reading the guide, I grouped items by assets that are recognisable. I would say for a new player, they wouldn't be buying BT for "Damage", rather they're looking for "Life Steal". So I guess what I'm asking now is whether you think it's fair to group items by core components or purpose.
For example (don't worry about items, just this is what I mean), in my guide I could have:
:crit:
etc
:lifesteal:
etc
or
:damage:
etc
:survivability:
etc
or
:attack speed:
etc
:crit+damage:
etc
See what I mean??
I guess I'm finding it hard to classify the items in groups that make sense immediately, not with knowledge of the game. Most people know that you need damage, attack speed, life steal and armour penetration on an ADC - which is why I tried to make it easy for a reader to quickly assess options available and pick and choose.
I don't like seeing "Alternative Items" and just a whole range of mixed items in a group - wth? How would a new player be helped by virtually seeing half the ADC shop in one group?
Hope you get what I mean. I'll also take your other comments in consideration, just need to dash off for a bit. If anyone else has any comments, I'm happy to hear them.
Embracing: Thanks for your comments. In terms of people reading the guide, I grouped items by assets that are recognisable. I would say for a new player, they wouldn't be buying BT for "Damage", rather they're looking for "Life Steal". So I guess what I'm asking now is whether you think it's fair to group items by core components or purpose.
For example (don't worry about items, just this is what I mean), in my guide I could have:
:crit:
etc:lifesteal:
etcor
:damage:
etc:survivability:
etcor
:attack speed:
etc:crit+damage:
etcSee what I mean??
I guess I'm finding it hard to classify the items in groups that make sense immediately, not with knowledge of the game. Most people know that you need damage, attack speed, life steal and armour penetration on an ADC - which is why I tried to make it easy for a reader to quickly assess options available and pick and choose.
I don't like seeing "Alternative Items" and just a whole range of mixed items in a group - wth? How would a new player be helped by virtually seeing half the ADC shop in one group?
Hope you get what I mean. I'll also take your other comments in consideration, just need to dash off for a bit. If anyone else has any comments, I'm happy to hear them.
@Bryan, I think it's fine to have BT classed as lifesteal rather than DPS; because technically speaking, building a 2nd IE/ER gives more DPS than building a BT. If it were just built for DPS then it would be a pretty bad item. It's bought because it gives damage among other things, the main thing being lifesteal. Since every single item in an ADC build gives damage, it's logical to distinguish them by classing them as their alternative stats, in BT's case being lifesteal. And I wouldn't put Merc under survivability because most of the time it's just the BT alternative for "when you could also do with the QSS active along with that lifesteal". It's still pretty much the same item class as BT, just more niche (while still being very common).
Also I disagree that BotRK is bad. Most of the time it's bad, but situationally it can be very strong against really tanky teams, and very underrated in that sense. E.g. if you auto-attack a tank that has 3.5k HP, BotRK's on-hit alone deals 210 damage, which out-damages BT's entire AD even factoring crits. Then when you consider BotRK's 25 AD and attack speed, it's just a much higher DPS item if you're going be auto-attacking tanks a lot, even though it's true that it'll do less damage the lower the tank gets so it's not 210 damage on every auto, but I'm pretty sure it's still considerably higher DPS while BT's strength comes in the form of increased survivability.
And for the record even if the target you auto has 1.5k HP, the passive still does 90 damage, more than a non-crit BT auto, and full crit damage of both items taken into account, BotRK loses out by 30 damage; but that's just a single auto-attack, BotRK does also give you 40% AS, which at full build should add up to a lot.
I honestly think there are very few situations where BotRK doesn't actually out-DPS BT in a team-fight, it's just that mostly the DPS increase isn't worth missing out on BT's/Scimitar's survivability for. But if you're in a game against suuuper tanky enemies where you feel like you don't make an impact dead or alive, you really do need as much DPS as you can have; and fortunately those situations are where BotRK's DPS also happens to be at its highest.
Even if enemy tankiness comes from resistances/sustain rather than ridiculously high HP, BotRK is still strong since the longer they stay not-at-low-HP, the more damage it does relative to other items. It would only not shine if you're only auto-attacking enemies that already have like 800 HP or something.
So while it should be emphasized in a guide that BotRK is highly situational on any ADC that isn't Vayne or Kalista, I still think it should definitely be included. There's plenty ADC games where I carried only because I sacrificed BT/Scimitar to built BotRK (even on Lucian, who's IMO wrongly considered a terrible BotRK user), and plenty where I lost because I didn't think to build BotRK in games where my DPS needed to be higher. I think BotRK as a whole is underrated mainly because people think its nerf in preseason destroyed it, but I've seen people say things about it that are completely off, like "even against full tanks BT does more damage if you don't have specifically scale off attack speed", so I think it's underrated because people actually have no idea just how much damage it does relative to BT/Scimitar, not even just against tanks but in general.
Also if you're looking for special synergy specifically with
Also I disagree that BotRK is bad. Most of the time it's bad, but situationally it can be very strong against really tanky teams, and very underrated in that sense. E.g. if you auto-attack a tank that has 3.5k HP, BotRK's on-hit alone deals 210 damage, which out-damages BT's entire AD even factoring crits. Then when you consider BotRK's 25 AD and attack speed, it's just a much higher DPS item if you're going be auto-attacking tanks a lot, even though it's true that it'll do less damage the lower the tank gets so it's not 210 damage on every auto, but I'm pretty sure it's still considerably higher DPS while BT's strength comes in the form of increased survivability.
And for the record even if the target you auto has 1.5k HP, the passive still does 90 damage, more than a non-crit BT auto, and full crit damage of both items taken into account, BotRK loses out by 30 damage; but that's just a single auto-attack, BotRK does also give you 40% AS, which at full build should add up to a lot.
I honestly think there are very few situations where BotRK doesn't actually out-DPS BT in a team-fight, it's just that mostly the DPS increase isn't worth missing out on BT's/Scimitar's survivability for. But if you're in a game against suuuper tanky enemies where you feel like you don't make an impact dead or alive, you really do need as much DPS as you can have; and fortunately those situations are where BotRK's DPS also happens to be at its highest.
Even if enemy tankiness comes from resistances/sustain rather than ridiculously high HP, BotRK is still strong since the longer they stay not-at-low-HP, the more damage it does relative to other items. It would only not shine if you're only auto-attacking enemies that already have like 800 HP or something.
So while it should be emphasized in a guide that BotRK is highly situational on any ADC that isn't
Vayne or Kalista, I still think it should definitely be included. There's plenty ADC games where I carried only because I sacrificed BT/Scimitar to built BotRK (even on Lucian, who's IMO wrongly considered a terrible BotRK user), and plenty where I lost because I didn't think to build BotRK in games where my DPS needed to be higher. I think BotRK as a whole is underrated mainly because people think its nerf in preseason destroyed it, but I've seen people say things about it that are completely off, like "even against full tanks BT does more damage if you don't have specifically scale off attack speed", so I think it's underrated because people actually have no idea just how much damage it does relative to BT/Scimitar, not even just against tanks but in general.Also if you're looking for special synergy specifically with Ashe, it lets you proc Ranger's Focus faster.
Update on the ER vs IE debate (which I probably started based on my incorrect information, apologies):
Although I had the impression that the standard build path was ER->Runaans->etc, the most common build right now is:
BF-sword (or pickaxe when having less gold) >> runaans >> infinity edge >> rapid firecannon >> mercurial, armor pen, etc
Why people skip essence reaver altogether is unknown to me. It could be a pro-only thing but it's what I've seen at least 90% of the pro games I've watched. I'm not familiar enough with ADC's like Ashe to give my verdict, but definitely consider the build path above. Either way, going Infinity Edge first is quite poor right now because it doesn't spike before 2 completed items and leaves you very weak after the initial BF-spike; particularly because you don't have attack speed, movement speed and waveclear. Furthermore, 2 attack speed/crit items are really common right now because they are much better than ever before and other items like bork/bt are much weaker.
Although I had the impression that the standard build path was ER->Runaans->etc, the most common build right now is:
BF-sword (or pickaxe when having less gold) >> runaans >> infinity edge >> rapid firecannon >> mercurial, armor pen, etc
Why people skip essence reaver altogether is unknown to me. It could be a pro-only thing but it's what I've seen at least 90% of the pro games I've watched. I'm not familiar enough with ADC's like Ashe to give my verdict, but definitely consider the build path above. Either way, going Infinity Edge first is quite poor right now because it doesn't spike before 2 completed items and leaves you very weak after the initial BF-spike; particularly because you don't have attack speed, movement speed and waveclear. Furthermore, 2 attack speed/crit items are really common right now because they are much better than ever before and other items like bork/bt are much weaker.
Vyn it's because Runaan's IE is a lot more damage for mid-game. I've still seen pros with ER first though.
I agree with others that Statikk Shiv is really bad right now and RFC makes for a better second zeal item if you want one. PD might be viable on her though I haven't seen Runaan's + PD very often.
TBC isn't worth buying because if you really need armor pen you should get Mortal Reminder or Lord Dominik's Regards. You're the adc, so you need to maximize your DPS. If you don't need armor pen, it's better to just get an IE, BT, RFC or something like that.
Agree with Vyn's build order above (BF Sword into Hurricane into IE) if you're going IE first, otherwise you can get ER instead and get IE later in the game. I'd go with the ER build because imo you pick Ashe for the solid early game and initiation power. More arrows makes a bigger difference in my eyes than a bit more damage.
Everything else looks fine to me build-wise.
Edit: Oh, also you could add Cull as an early game purchase if you back with only around 450 gold.
And Maw of Malmortius as a situational item to deal with all magic threats (though it's fairly rare).
I agree with others that
Statikk Shiv is really bad right now and RFC makes for a better second zeal item if you want one. PD might be viable on her though I haven't seen Runaan's + PD very often.TBC isn't worth buying because if you really need armor pen you should get
Mortal Reminder or Lord Dominik's Regards. You're the adc, so you need to maximize your DPS. If you don't need armor pen, it's better to just get an IE, BT, RFC or something like that.Agree with Vyn's build order above (BF Sword into Hurricane into IE) if you're going IE first, otherwise you can get ER instead and get IE later in the game. I'd go with the ER build because imo you pick Ashe for the solid early game and initiation power. More arrows makes a bigger difference in my eyes than a bit more damage.
Everything else looks fine to me build-wise.
Edit: Oh, also you could add
Cull as an early game purchase if you back with only around 450 gold.And
Maw of Malmortius as a situational item to deal with all magic threats (though it's fairly rare).
Thanks to Minho for the sig!
Vynertje wrote:
Update on the ER vs IE debate (which I probably started based on my incorrect information, apologies):
Although I had the impression that the standard build path was ER->Runaans->etc, the most common build right now is:
BF-sword (or pickaxe when having less gold) >> runaans >> infinity edge
Why people skip essence reaver altogether is unknown to me. It could be a pro-only thing but it's what I've seen at least 90% of the pro games I've watched. I'm not familiar enough with ADC's like Ashe to give my verdict, but definitely consider the build path above. Either way, going Infinity Edge first is quite poor right now because it doesn't spike before 2 completed items and leaves you very weak after the initial BF-spike; particularly because you don't have attack speed, movement speed and waveclear.
Although I had the impression that the standard build path was ER->Runaans->etc, the most common build right now is:
BF-sword (or pickaxe when having less gold) >> runaans >> infinity edge
Why people skip essence reaver altogether is unknown to me. It could be a pro-only thing but it's what I've seen at least 90% of the pro games I've watched. I'm not familiar enough with ADC's like Ashe to give my verdict, but definitely consider the build path above. Either way, going Infinity Edge first is quite poor right now because it doesn't spike before 2 completed items and leaves you very weak after the initial BF-spike; particularly because you don't have attack speed, movement speed and waveclear.
Well that's certainly an option, but I don't know about it being the most common build. Where have you seen it done? It's the same build I use on Trist and I just saw on Probuilds that it's being used on
Ashe sometimes too, but ER rush is still by far the most common as far as I can tell.They must be skipping ER since going a 2nd AS item gives more DPS than ER.
Vapora Dark wrote:
Well that's certainly an option, but I don't know about it being the most common build. Where have you seen it done? It's the same build I use on Trist and I just saw on Probuilds that it's being used on
Ashe sometimes too, but ER rush is still by far the most common as far as I can tell.They must be skipping ER since going a 2nd AS item gives more DPS than ER.
It's pretty much all the pro games I've watched. Mostly EULCS and some OGN. I've only seen a few ER builds and mostly the build as described above.
Guys, first of all, thanks verily for sharing your knowledge. I sincerely appreciate the discussion you're having here, as I'm learning quite a bit and enjoying the back and forth.
Second, I just want you all to know that I do absolutely intend to make this guide the best it can be as I've got another week of school holidays and MobaFire deserves the best from me. I know I haven't been the best at keeping my guide 100% updated over the last two years, nor have I always listened to the advice given to me (but I'll be 25 in October and I just signed a contract for my first house, so maybe I'm adult enough now to do the right thing), but I honestly do want to try and make my guide better.
Below I've listed the options I'd like to show in my guide, dropping items that you all have advised isn't great (but leaving BC as an option that won't be in the example final). I've ordered them in the purchase order that will appear in my cheat sheet and the items are in order of "9/10 this is built over the other choices". I haven't quite got my head around the best "at a glance cheatsheet" build path (spawn > core > attack speed > damage > life steal > survivability > armour pen), so correct me if I'm wrong:
:spawn:
:early recall:
:<1.3kG:
:>1.3kG:
:core:
:attack speed:
:damage:
:life steal:
:survivability:
:armour pen:
:example build:
(so no IE at all?)
^ I'd like to have two more alternative builds, if possible, to give at-a-glance readers a few choices for possible build paths.
Let me know your thoughts or what I've missed if I've missed any suggestions or if I've misinterpreted anything in general.
Second, I just want you all to know that I do absolutely intend to make this guide the best it can be as I've got another week of school holidays and MobaFire deserves the best from me. I know I haven't been the best at keeping my guide 100% updated over the last two years, nor have I always listened to the advice given to me (but I'll be 25 in October and I just signed a contract for my first house, so maybe I'm adult enough now to do the right thing), but I honestly do want to try and make my guide better.
Below I've listed the options I'd like to show in my guide, dropping items that you all have advised isn't great (but leaving BC as an option that won't be in the example final). I've ordered them in the purchase order that will appear in my cheat sheet and the items are in order of "9/10 this is built over the other choices". I haven't quite got my head around the best "at a glance cheatsheet" build path (spawn > core > attack speed > damage > life steal > survivability > armour pen), so correct me if I'm wrong:
:spawn:
:early recall:
:<1.3kG:
:>1.3kG:
:core:
:attack speed:
:damage:
:life steal:
:survivability:
:armour pen:
:example build:
(so no IE at all?)^ I'd like to have two more alternative builds, if possible, to give at-a-glance readers a few choices for possible build paths.
Let me know your thoughts or what I've missed if I've missed any suggestions or if I've misinterpreted anything in general.
You have one core build path on Ashe (Zerk ER Runaan IE).
Other options are a lot more inferior. There is a lot less room for build variety if you're seeking to add an ideal item build in your guide. You can't just slap on items from "damage" "AS" "arpen" and let it work out now - champions have to build specific items to optimize gameplay, not to mention it's far simpler for beginners to follow a strict core buildpath and learn to identify and add on situational items.
Other options are a lot more inferior. There is a lot less room for build variety if you're seeking to add an ideal item build in your guide. You can't just slap on items from "damage" "AS" "arpen" and let it work out now - champions have to build specific items to optimize gameplay, not to mention it's far simpler for beginners to follow a strict core buildpath and learn to identify and add on situational items.
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<Perfectionist>
** EPIC SHOWDOWN OF A LIFETIME p1 **