Let's talk about 4.12 Ahri

[quote=Blood26]Hello, how's everyone doing :)? Long time no see eh. This is the current change proposed by Riot for 4.12 [[Ahri]] Orb of Deception ( Q ) mana cost reduced to 55/60/65/70/75 from 70/75/80/85/90 Orb of Deception ( Q ) AP ratio ( on hit and return ) increased to .35 from .325 [u]Thoughts from Riot staffs,[/u] [u][/u] [u]Ahri: Ahri's a cool fox gal that we'd like to see more of, but she's currently sitting just below the top-tier mid picks. We're investigating ways to make Ahri feel better to play without just tipping her into the perma-pick category (hello S3 worlds).[/u] We are aware her latest nerf has completely butchered Ahri as a champion overall. The "fix" was intended to go with Assassin Ahri but it also affected Mage Ahri, due to the popularity she had with DFG. Ever since then Ahri has been under performing, she is strong but her strength comes from requiring people to hit their skillshots, thereby increasing her already high skillcap. What I'm interested in discussing is what sort of changes do you think Riot has in plans for Ahri? Are they intending to bring back Mage Ahri while toning down Assassin Ahri. Lower her high reliance on DFG and promote versatile builds such as Rylai + Cap Ahri. Those of you in NA would know better, so I'd like to ask for your opinion. Tell how it feels to experience this buffed Ahri on PBE, before she got disabled due to bugs.[/quote]

[quote=Zordagoth]I doubt they will bring back "Mage Ahri" cos that's what they tried to change in the first place. While the mana cost will be really cool, the ap ratio is definitively not important to the point everything will change on her xD[/quote]

[quote=Blood26][quote=Zordagoth] I doubt they will bring back "Mage Ahri" cos that's what they tried to change in the first place. While the mana cost will be really cool, the ap ratio is definitively not important to the point everything will change on her xD [/quote] Any specific reasons why they wanted to nerf Mage Ahri?[/quote]

[quote=Zordagoth]If you were not there at the time ahri was a top pick, it's pretty simple : she could simply R-Z into enemy team and cause extremely high AoE dmg while being extremely mobile for a short time making her hard to catch and deadly So they nerfed pretty much all her damage and gave the buff on charm to make ahri a monotarget assassin instead of a teamfight bulldozer ...[/quote]

[quote=Barph]There is no intention of bringing back mage Ahri. Assassin Ahri is what Riot want of her simply due to it being a much higher skill requirement and keeps her as a high skill-flashy play making champ which is the appeal of her to those that play her. As for the changes, I don't expect any more than that listed change and from a non-Ahri pov that change may look small and insignificant but it isn't, it is huge. First off is the AP ratio from 0.65 > 0.70, although it looks tiny it is quite major. Riot need to be careful when changing the damage from a spell that is 50% true damage. The thing about that is during Ahri's burst combo the spell is amplified by 44%(Charm/DFG). That makes it a 0.93 AP ratio prebuff, and a 1 AP ratio post buff. Another thing is pre-level 9, and post-9 if you are behind, Ahri can't 1 shot the ranged minions and leaves them on ~5 hp, this is extremely frustrating because 1 melee minion will always go for those ranged minions and it will cost at least 1 of them since you can't autoattack all 3 quick enough. Im hoping that extra 0.05 ratio will stop that from happening. The mana buff though, holy hell. That is a lane changer, Ahri is a weak laner right now vulnerable to lane bullies and pushers since she suffers from reliable damage and the ability to sustain it due to her mana issues. That -15 mana on Q will actually allow her to harass/push with Q without ooming extremely fast and will make her a considerably better laner.[/quote]

[quote=Blood26][quote=Barph] There is no intention of bringing back mage Ahri. Assassin Ahri is what Riot want of her simply due to it being a much higher skill requirement and keeps her as a high skill-flashy play making champ which is the appeal of her to those that play her. As for the changes, I don't expect any more than that listed change and from a non-Ahri pov that change may look small and insignificant but it isn't, it is huge. First off is the AP ratio from 0.65 > 0.70, although it looks tiny it is quite major. Riot need to be careful when changing the damage from a spell that is 50% true damage. The thing about that is during Ahri's burst combo the spell is amplified by 44%(Charm/DFG). That makes it a 0.93 AP ratio prebuff, and a 1 AP ratio post buff. Another thing is pre-level 9, and post-9 if you are behind, Ahri can't 1 shot the ranged minions and leaves them on ~5 hp, this is extremely frustrating because 1 melee minion will always go for those ranged minions and it will cost at least 1 of them since you can't autoattack all 3 quick enough. Im hoping that extra 0.05 ratio will stop that from happening. The mana buff though, holy hell. That is a lane changer, Ahri is a weak laner right now vulnerable to lane bullies and pushers since she suffers from reliable damage and the ability to sustain it due to her mana issues. That -15 mana on Q will actually allow her to harass/push with Q without ooming extremely fast and will make her a considerably better laner. [/quote] Hello Barph/Varph, wasn't expecting to find you here. We've spoken a few times previously. In regards to your post.. 1. I disagree that the identity of a Mage should be stripped away from Ahri, considering the fact Riot had design Ahri as a balance between Mage and an Assassin, whose entire gameplay revolves around risk/rewards and knowing when to dive in and when to dive out. To say that Assassin Ahri has a higher skill cap in comparison to Mage Ahri is a bit biased and I believe that, regardless of what builds Ahri goes for, both Assassin and Mage Ahri have an equally demanding role. The way I see it, Assassin Ahri is focused on an all out-burst, while sacrificing herself for the team to blow up enemy ADC in very unfavorable situations. In order to get the job done, she needs to be precise about what she does. Mage Ahri on the other hand, is all about positioning but still emphasizes on precision. She isn't so much keen on eliminating the ADC but doing as much DPS as she can in a teamfight. 2. While the Q buff in terms of ratio is somewhat noticeable, it is certainly not the only buff she needs. Only because Ahri's entire damage output come from skillshots and skillshots can be unreliable no matter how well a player lands their skills. Mana cost buff is definitely reasonable and much needed, only because many mid laners have mana cost-effective abilities and Ahri remains to be one of the AP Mids whose extremely mana hungry. 3. To say that Ahri is only worthy of the role of an Assassin now is certainly biased like I mentioned in my first point. I know because I am aware in almost every AP Mid guide that you've written, you take pride in [[Deathfire Grasp]], your holy grail as you would call it. And I am aware that your guide was one of the possible factors attributing to Ahri's popularity with DFG, along with the Korean Players, which brought Mage Ahri out of popularity. Subsequently when the nerfs hit her, Mage Ahri was directly affected. This is out of line with Riot's gameplay stance, whereby they want to encourage much versatile builds with their champions, rather than forcing a champion to go down a specific path line. And over here, I'd like to know if you're overpreaching DFG as a core item on many AP Casters, without realizing this item has led to many painful nerfs towards a healthy champion such as Ahri. 4. I humbly disagree on Assassin Ahri making bigger plays and fitting the "appropriate" vision of a high skill cap champion. Do you mean to tell me that Ahri was never a high skillcap champion to be with? And in terms of big plays, I believe Ahri can achieve big plays as a Mage too, under different circumstances. I understand your love for Assassin Ahri but I also believe in making possibilities for Mage Ahri to come back. Considering that you're in the NA/EU region, I believe you are aware that there are players who do not enjoy playing Ahri as an all-out Assassin, rather they prefer a more kiting/DPS mage, whereby the experience is as equally rewarding based on how well they position themselves. And that forcing DFG on Ahri removes versatility and discourages different build paths. The Q buff in my opinion, encourages a much more Mage-like play whereby it encourages Ahri players to poke, and that her damage is not reliant on landing charm for damage amp and getting everything to land on her food. I wouldn't mind if they nerf or completely strip away the dmg amp on Charm because I believe it simply unnecessary to make Ahri revolve around her usage of charm when what she is really defined for is her mobility. If any, don't you think DFG should be nerfed for it's high AP and dmg amp? To simply nerf a champion whose popularity revolved around DFG is certainly not a wise decision as there are other champions who may abuse the said item, such as Syndra, whom I believe you have also preached DFG on. It is simply the best offensive AP item at the moment, for it provides huge AP Boost, 10% CDR and 20 dmg amp. And it is clearly overpowered. If Riot believes that a Defensive item such as [[Athene's Unholy Grail]] is simply overpowered because it provides Mana Regen, MR, AP and CDR, I believe there is room for them to realize an item such as DFG needs to be tweaked too.[/quote]

[quote=Barph][quote=Blood26] [quote=Barph] There is no intention of bringing back mage Ahri. Assassin Ahri is what Riot want of her simply due to it being a much higher skill requirement and keeps her as a high skill-flashy play making champ which is the appeal of her to those that play her. As for the changes, I don't expect any more than that listed change and from a non-Ahri pov that change may look small and insignificant but it isn't, it is huge. First off is the AP ratio from 0.65 > 0.70, although it looks tiny it is quite major. Riot need to be careful when changing the damage from a spell that is 50% true damage. The thing about that is during Ahri's burst combo the spell is amplified by 44%(Charm/DFG). That makes it a 0.93 AP ratio prebuff, and a 1 AP ratio post buff. Another thing is pre-level 9, and post-9 if you are behind, Ahri can't 1 shot the ranged minions and leaves them on ~5 hp, this is extremely frustrating because 1 melee minion will always go for those ranged minions and it will cost at least 1 of them since you can't autoattack all 3 quick enough. Im hoping that extra 0.05 ratio will stop that from happening. The mana buff though, holy hell. That is a lane changer, Ahri is a weak laner right now vulnerable to lane bullies and pushers since she suffers from reliable damage and the ability to sustain it due to her mana issues. That -15 mana on Q will actually allow her to harass/push with Q without ooming extremely fast and will make her a considerably better laner. [/quote] Hello Barph/Varph, wasn't expecting to find you here. We've spoken a few times previously. In regards to your post.. 1. I disagree that the identity of a Mage should be stripped away from Ahri, considering the fact Riot had design Ahri as a balance between Mage and an Assassin, whose entire gameplay revolves around risk/rewards and knowing when to dive in and when to dive out. To say that Assassin Ahri has a higher skill cap in comparison to Mage Ahri is a bit biased and I believe that, regardless of what builds Ahri goes for, both Assassin and Mage Ahri have an equally demanding role. The way I see it, Assassin Ahri is focused on an all out-burst, while sacrificing herself for the team to blow up enemy ADC in very unfavorable situations. In order to get the job done, she needs to be precise about what she does. Mage Ahri on the other hand, is all about positioning but still emphasizes on precision. She isn't so much keen on eliminating the ADC but doing as much DPS as she can in a teamfight. 2. While the Q buff in terms of ratio is somewhat noticeable, it is certainly not the only buff she needs. Only because Ahri's entire damage output come from skillshots and skillshots can be unreliable no matter how well a player lands their skills. Mana cost buff is definitely reasonable and much needed, only because many mid laners have mana cost-effective abilities and Ahri remains to be one of the AP Mids whose extremely mana hungry. 3. To say that Ahri is only worthy of the role of an Assassin now is certainly biased like I mentioned in my first point. I know because I am aware in almost every AP Mid guide that you've written, you take pride in [[Deathfire Grasp]], your holy grail as you would call it. And I am aware that your guide was one of the possible factors attributing to Ahri's popularity with DFG, along with the Korean Players, which brought Mage Ahri out of popularity. Subsequently when the nerfs hit her, Mage Ahri was directly affected. This is out of line with Riot's gameplay stance, whereby they want to encourage much versatile builds with their champions, rather than forcing a champion to go down a specific path line. And over here, I'd like to know if you're overpreaching DFG as a core item on many AP Casters, without realizing this item has led to many painful nerfs towards a healthy champion such as Ahri. 4. I humbly disagree on Assassin Ahri making bigger plays and fitting the "appropriate" vision of a high skill cap champion. Do you mean to tell me that Ahri was never a high skillcap champion to be with? And in terms of big plays, I believe Ahri can achieve big plays as a Mage too, under different circumstances. I understand your love for Assassin Ahri but I also believe in making possibilities for Mage Ahri to come back. Considering that you're in the NA/EU region, I believe you are aware that there are players who do not enjoy playing Ahri as an all-out Assassin, rather they prefer a more kiting/DPS mage, whereby the experience is as equally rewarding based on how well they position themselves. And that forcing DFG on Ahri removes versatility and discourages different build paths. The Q buff in my opinion, encourages a much more Mage-like play whereby it encourages Ahri players to poke, and that her damage is not reliant on landing charm for damage amp and getting everything to land on her food. I wouldn't mind if they nerf or completely strip away the dmg amp on Charm because I believe it simply unnecessary to make Ahri revolve around her usage of charm when what she is really defined for is her mobility. If any, don't you think DFG should be nerfed for it's high AP and dmg amp? To simply nerf a champion whose popularity revolved around DFG is certainly not a wise decision as there are other champions who may abuse the said item, such as Syndra, whom I believe you have also preached DFG on. It is simply the best offensive AP item at the moment, for it provides huge AP Boost, 10% CDR and 20 dmg amp. And it is clearly overpowered. If Riot believes that a Defensive item such as [[Athene's Unholy Grail]] is simply overpowered because it provides Mana Regen, MR, AP and CDR, I believe there is room for them to realize an item such as DFG needs to be tweaked too. [/quote] 1. But assassin IS the more demanding role, thats just always been the case for the game. An assassin has a small window of opportunity they have to act on and not screw up when they do where as for the most part mages are just throw your spells at whoever you can while staying alive. The staying alive is the hard bit for mages outside of landing their abilities and "mage" Ahri counters that by having her ultimate for repositioning. And lets not pretend that there is that big of a difference, Assassin Ahri is mage Ahri with a DFG. That's all there is too it, assassin Ahri is just Ahri using her biggest strength(single target burst) and then she transitions over to just being a mage, only difference being is that assassin Ahri only has 1 jump to relocate whereas the mage playstyle would have 3, another thing leading to assassin being a more demanding role as it is much less forgiving at the cost of a higher reward. And again the difference between them in minimal, often Ahri doesn't get a chance to assassinate a target and actually will play the role of being a kiting mage where her DFG/Charm just gets used on whoever collects it. In all honesty mage Ahri just sounds like it is for players who can't get used to DFG or are not willing to try assassinate due to the high risk nature but really the only difference between the 2 is 1 has a DFG and 1 does not. 2. I feel the PBE buff is all Ahri needs and any more risks putting her back into the FOTM category, months of Ahri bans and the negative stigma of her being a "faceroll"(RW 100-0 noob) champ are not the king of things I want to experience again. 3. Like I said above, Assassin Ahri can play like a mage if she has too as she will have more AP than the mage build, whereas mage Ahri can barely perform as an assassin. 4. Ahri was never an easy champion, but her difficulty definitely skyrockted when her reliance on damage was shifted from W/R to Q/E. Autotargeted damage vs difficult skillshots, not rocket science to gauge which is harder. And this is another thing I mentioned earlier, picking out a target(who knows you are going to be trying such a thing) and taking them out of the game in a short window without messing up is a harder and higher risk playstyle than kiting with Spirit rush. As for DFG, I actually don't think it should be remade/removed. DFG is a high skill/counterplay item, it gives the player an extra ability they have to use(which can clutter a combo if you are not used to it) and it forces the user of it to make their play in a 4 second window with a 1 minute cooldown and it tells the enemy of the users intentions. Assassins are always going to be a role in this game and their job is to 100-0 someone which isn't possible if DFG was removed, in which case every assassin and single target burst mage(Veigar) would have to be buffed to compensate so in the end all it would be doing is reducing the skillcap of all those assassins while simultaneously buffing them. DFG is 100% pure offensive power when bought for 3100g, the user of it gets no harder to kill themselves which is what makes it balanced and is also why Syndra/LeBlanc were getting Athene's first(although this is also due to their retarded damage even without a DFG). Unrelated to that Athene's really did deserve to be nerfed as it simply offered too much. Every mage that buys it wants CDR and mana sustain to improve their sustained damage and wave clear which Athene's obviously filled the role of, but it came with 40 MR why? It is the biggest contributor to stale farming wars midlane since it gives them unlimited pushing power and safety. Simply too versatile and amazing strong in all areas for the item to have went unnerfed and even in its nerfed state it is still THE midlane starting item.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Actually, Riot once intended to remove DFG because it is too hard to balance, well... I think DFG should be reworked into a midgame item rather than a lategame item, with a build up like this: [img]http://s1.directupload.net/images/140707/mjwu27vs.png[/img] This way, it doesn't add another burst to your kit, it just increases your existing burst. This way, it is way easier to balance because mages no longer have another spells to use.[/quote]

[quote=Barph]That wouldn't work since Assassins need the high AP especially for their late game which is generally their weakest point. Additionally DFG specifically has CDR on it because assassins can't get it anywhere else easily as DFG/Dcap/Hourglass/Void are completely core on them not leaving much room for CDR. Also the AoE damage amp of that is just random power pointlessly through on the thing.[/quote]