Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides
's Forum Avatar

Last whisper vs Black cleaver (Armor...

Creator: europeanorigin October 30, 2012 12:27pm
1 2
europeanorigin
<Member>
europeanorigin's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
25
Joined:
Jun 21st, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 12:27pm | Report
Good evening folks !

First a quick disclaimer : I will not discuss the global value of LW and BC (meaning that I won't say whether LW is better/worse than BC overall, because there are too many factors to discuss this correctly, some of which depends on the hero taken and its level and items)

In your thinking process, don't forget to consider the fact that BC applies armor reduction, which means it improves the damage of all members of the team fighting the target. It also have additional stats, but costs much more.

I'd like to discuss a bit the efficiency of LW and BC in terms of armor penetration. From what I've read in forums, there few experienced players that only swear by LW and A LOT of people that believes BC to be much stronger than LW unless the enemy has A LOT of Armor.

It seems to me that a lot of people forget that BC passive is an on-hit passive, which triggers PROGRESSIVELY AND AFTER THE HIT. That means that on the first hit, the damage are not calculated with some armor penetration from BC, on the second there's a 15 flat armor penetration, then 30 and then finally 45 at each hit.

Which logically means that on the first hit LW is ALWAYS stronger than BC (in terms of armor penetration).
Now how does it evolves afterwards ?

Well for the second hit, you'll have to solve a polynomial inequation of order 2. On the third hit, it will become an inequation of order 3, etc. All of which can be solved, and I solved them all up to the 10th hit.
I've compiled them into a graph so that you can enjoy my work in an easily understandable way.

HOW TO READ THE GRAPH :

As stated in the title of graph, each bar represents the quantity of armor needed for last whisper to be stronger than black cleaver per hit.





As you can see LW is usually stronger than BC in terms of armor penetration in the first hits, even against heroes with an armor as low as 100 points!

Consider the fact that at level 18, most heroes have around 80 base Armor + some armor from runes/masteries/armor, you can safely assume that LW armor penetration is stronger than BC armor reduction.

I won't say LW is stronger than BC, but I just felt it was unfair for the item to be considered as only viable against very heavily armored enemies.

Anyway, I hope this proves useful to the mobafire community.
Luther3000
<Sharpshooter>
Luther3000's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
8046
Joined:
Jun 24th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 12:32pm | Report
o god pls not again
Temzilla
<Scout>
Temzilla's Forum Avatar
Posts:
4363
Joined:
Mar 28th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 12:33pm | Report
It's really ****ing simple.

TBC if you want to focus someone like an ad carry, or it's your first item.

LW if you want to play an AD carry.
Tri lane for life.
Lugignaf
<Moderator>
Lugignaf's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
10967
Joined:
Feb 8th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 12:39pm | Report
Luther3000 wrote:

o god pls not again
lifebaka
<Scout>
lifebaka's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
1126
Joined:
Dec 12th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 1:02pm | Report
I'm afraid I don't know a way to phrase this softly, so I apologize in advance if I come off as overly harsh. I'm not trying to be.

Regardless of whether or not your results are correct (which is difficult to judge without actually seeing your exact method), they aren't useful. It never matters which item is more effective at removing enemy armor, the player should only ever be concerned with which item will provide more damage to an enemy target. And knowing which item removes more enemy armor is nowhere near enough to calculate this, as you well know, because the two items provide different amounts of AD and AS, before even considering their cost difference. These factors, which are made even more complex by the necessity to also include the exact stats of champions, their masteries, runes, and other items, make simple models misleading, at best.
OTGBionicArm wrote: Armored wimminz = badass.

My posts may be long. If this bothers you, don't read them.
BusDriver210
<Member>
BusDriver210's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
906
Joined:
Feb 28th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 8:36pm | Report
Luther3000 wrote:

o god pls not again
+Rep me if i'm useful!
tehAsian
<Veteran>
tehAsian's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
3721
Joined:
Jul 20th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 30, 2012 9:16pm | Report
Riot is changing the way penetration works.

Your graphs are invalid in 7 days.
LaCorpse's Signature Cafe


Thanks to Keondre, JhoiJhoi, Xiron, and Arcana3 for the Sigs~!
europeanorigin
<Member>
europeanorigin's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
25
Joined:
Jun 21st, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 31, 2012 3:56am | Report
@tehAsian : Where did you get that info ??? I'd be pleased to know that source of yours!
tehAsian
<Veteran>
tehAsian's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
3721
Joined:
Jul 20th, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 31, 2012 7:33am | Report
LaCorpse's Signature Cafe


Thanks to Keondre, JhoiJhoi, Xiron, and Arcana3 for the Sigs~!
europeanorigin
<Member>
europeanorigin's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
25
Joined:
Jun 21st, 2011
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend October 31, 2012 10:27am | Report
Thank you !
The thread started with a guy saying he read it in a post on a forum of lol, which wasn't very helpful, but I've managed to find the original thread.

Anyway, it won't be changed before the beginning of season 3, which should occur late January, so what I did hold for at least 2 more months.

Again thank you for sharing the thread.
1 2

You need to log in before commenting.