Thoughts on Sword of the Occult on Vayne?

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=Ellodere][spoiler=td;dr]Soto is an item that just like mejai's soulstealer has a bigger starting price than it should have, because of how it doesn't give you an instant stat boost that is also very strong unlike a BF Sword or a Pickaxe for that matter. Now, for me to really estimate a build's gold value, I would have to go through the first main build, then through some other options and then lastly the "Soto" build as we may call it. First of all, the price is 1400 gold. It gives: + 10 Attack damage A passive that gets you 5 AD per stack (max 20 stacks) and a speed boost at the end(but we are excluding that for now). To really get the maximum amount of AD from this item, we have to be able to play ridiculously safe but at the same time get tons of kills through out the game. The maximum AD will at about: MAXAD = 10 + 5 x 20 MAXAD = 10 + 100 MAXAD = 110 AD 110 AD as mentioned above, which is worth according to the league wiki 3960 gold (without the AS boost), but I took some of the basic ADC items ranging from long sword, pickaxe to BF sword and took their gold value per AD and divided it all with the amount of values (3) which looks like this: (36 (longsword's gold/AD) + 35 (Pickaxe's gold/AD) + 31 (BF sword's gold/AD)) / 3 = 102 / 3 = 34 gold/AD So, because of that I don't totally trust League wiki (except of finding these facts) I have come to the conclusion that 1 AD is worth 34 gold. So taking those 110 AD and multiplying it with 34, we get 3740 G. But that's ONLY when you get those kills, so it would be like a long sword, except it gets you around 2 extra BF swords later on depending on how well you are doing. Now, to really break down if this item is worth the risk. you are set behind at the start by 1060 G because: 10 x 34 = 340 gold 1400 (the item price) - 340 ( the actual value of the item at the start) = 1060 G (the gold that you just wasted for buying it). The point where this item is cost efficent is at 7 kills. Now, because you wasted these 1060G, you had to go through all the trouble of getting those 7 kills. BUT, let's not snow in on that front and focus on something outside of the item's passive and source of it's scaling, let's focus on minions and how much of them you need to get the actual item and to then make up for the gold that you wasted. (we will exclude the passive gold you acquire per second for these equations because I don't want to make this too long). Every minion wave has 6 minions and 7 at the third waves(the third wave comes at 2:30, 1 minute (or 2 waves) after the first one has spawned and after that the interval of each third wave will be at 1:30 minutes (90 seconds)). The normal waves with 6 minions are worth ~110 gold each (OBS! This is the value of all normal waves EXCLUDING the gold increase per 90 seconds of each respective minion type) and the third waves are worth 150 gold. So, if we exclude all the dynamics of a lane matchup, fighting in lane and overall just imagining that the opponent might as well be non-existent, you will acquire 1400 G at: (110 x 2 + 150(the total gold value of three waves)) x 4 = 370 x 4 = 1480 G OR 12 waves OR 390 seconds/6:30 minutes(counting in the time for the 12th wave to spawn (360 seconds/6 minutes) and the amount of time it takes for it to arrive into lane so you can get the gold from it (30 seconds)). So after 6 minutes you will be able to recall to base and get a Soto, but remember we are still behind now by 1060 G which is about: 9 minion waves(1010 g) + 2 melee minions and one ranged minion(57 g) or; 9 minion waves(1010 g) + 3 ranged minions(51 g) or; 330 seconds (counting in the amount of time it takes for the 9 more waves to spawn (270 seconds/4:30 minutes) and the amount of time it takes for it to arrive into lane (30 seconds) and the amount of time it takes for the next wave (that has the 2 melee minions or 3 ranged minions that you need to come over the cost efficiency problem)(30 seconds more)). How much time has flowed by in total? 5:30 + 6:30 = 12:00 minutes So after 12 minutes you will have gotten the soto and overcome to the gold issue for which you will have acquired about 1200 gold from the point you arrived back into lane with a soto and stayed for 5:30 minutes, which you will use to get a cutlass, a pickaxe or some other item choices (haven't listed all of them). So by buying the Soto first (I assume that's what you maybe do from time to time) you will have delayed your cutlass by ~6 minutes and therefore you got set behind by a TON if you don't have god like decision making and mechanics that would get you kills in lane after that you got the soto(which is a bit unlikely because the other opponent would have(if we use the 1060 g that you got set back with as a reference): One pickaxe + some health and mana pots; or 2 dorans blades + some health and mana pots; or 1 dorans blade + 2 long swords; or 1 vampiric scepter + some health and mana pots There's a lot more things that the other opponent could have gotten out of that 1060 g you didn't use well. So basically, there's only really some (highly unlikely) situation where this WOULD work, and that's if you are uzi on ecstasy and redbull(haven't seen it and probably never will) or if their team feeds you. That's the only time this would pay off better than what the cutlass will do. But for late game, this is indeed a decent option, but that means you have to sacrifice an item, and the only item that I could ever imagine a vayne sacrificing would be her defensive item, which you [u]NEVER[/u] should do in a serious real game (ranked or competitive) and even if you did sacrifice your primary damage items for the Soto, it will not be of great help because you will [u]still[/u] have to grind up some kills during late game to get the full potential out of it. But keep in mind that I excluded the fact that there is an opponent, the fact that not many people are so perfect at csing that they will lasthit every single minion during those 21 minion waves in total. You just have to admit, if I had taken an opponent, the pressure in lane, and the harass and potential of you dying (which would result in minion loss) it would probably look EVEN worse than it already is. Just admit it, soto is a no-buy for vayne[/spoiler][/quote]just as a courtesy to others reading, you might wanna use spoilers for long posts like this. like so: [[[spoiler=wall of text]]]wall of text[[[/spoiler]]] ^^[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=Ellodere][spoiler=td;dr]Soto is an item that just like mejai's soulstealer has a bigger starting price than it should have, because of how it doesn't give you an instant stat boost that is also very strong unlike a BF Sword or a Pickaxe for that matter. Now, for me to really estimate a build's gold value, I would have to go through the first main build, then through some other options and then lastly the "Soto" build as we may call it. First of all, the price is 1400 gold. It gives: + 10 Attack damage A passive that gets you 5 AD per stack (max 20 stacks) and a speed boost at the end(but we are excluding that for now). To really get the maximum amount of AD from this item, we have to be able to play ridiculously safe but at the same time get tons of kills through out the game. The maximum AD will at about: MAXAD = 10 + 5 x 20 MAXAD = 10 + 100 MAXAD = 110 AD 110 AD as mentioned above, which is worth according to the league wiki 3960 gold (without the AS boost), but I took some of the basic ADC items ranging from long sword, pickaxe to BF sword and took their gold value per AD and divided it all with the amount of values (3) which looks like this: (36 (longsword's gold/AD) + 35 (Pickaxe's gold/AD) + 31 (BF sword's gold/AD)) / 3 = 102 / 3 = 34 gold/AD So, because of that I don't totally trust League wiki (except of finding these facts) I have come to the conclusion that 1 AD is worth 34 gold. So taking those 110 AD and multiplying it with 34, we get 3740 G. But that's ONLY when you get those kills, so it would be like a long sword, except it gets you around 2 extra BF swords later on depending on how well you are doing. Now, to really break down if this item is worth the risk. you are set behind at the start by 1060 G because: 10 x 34 = 340 gold 1400 (the item price) - 340 ( the actual value of the item at the start) = 1060 G (the gold that you just wasted for buying it). The point where this item is cost efficent is at 7 kills. Now, because you wasted these 1060G, you had to go through all the trouble of getting those 7 kills. BUT, let's not snow in on that front and focus on something outside of the item's passive and source of it's scaling, let's focus on minions and how much of them you need to get the actual item and to then make up for the gold that you wasted. (we will exclude the passive gold you acquire per second for these equations because I don't want to make this too long). Every minion wave has 6 minions and 7 at the third waves(the third wave comes at 2:30, 1 minute (or 2 waves) after the first one has spawned and after that the interval of each third wave will be at 1:30 minutes (90 seconds)). The normal waves with 6 minions are worth ~110 gold each (OBS! This is the value of all normal waves EXCLUDING the gold increase per 90 seconds of each respective minion type) and the third waves are worth 150 gold. So, if we exclude all the dynamics of a lane matchup, fighting in lane and overall just imagining that the opponent might as well be non-existent, you will acquire 1400 G at: (110 x 2 + 150(the total gold value of three waves)) x 4 = 370 x 4 = 1480 G OR 12 waves OR 390 seconds/6:30 minutes(counting in the time for the 12th wave to spawn (360 seconds/6 minutes) and the amount of time it takes for it to arrive into lane so you can get the gold from it (30 seconds)). So after 6 minutes you will be able to recall to base and get a Soto, but remember we are still behind now by 1060 G which is about: 9 minion waves(1010 g) + 2 melee minions and one ranged minion(57 g) or; 9 minion waves(1010 g) + 3 ranged minions(51 g) or; 330 seconds (counting in the amount of time it takes for the 9 more waves to spawn (270 seconds/4:30 minutes) and the amount of time it takes for it to arrive into lane (30 seconds) and the amount of time it takes for the next wave (that has the 2 melee minions or 3 ranged minions that you need to come over the cost efficiency problem)(30 seconds more)). How much time has flowed by in total? 5:30 + 6:30 = 12:00 minutes So after 12 minutes you will have gotten the soto and overcome to the gold issue for which you will have acquired about 1200 gold from the point you arrived back into lane with a soto and stayed for 5:30 minutes, which you will use to get a cutlass, a pickaxe or some other item choices (haven't listed all of them). So by buying the Soto first (I assume that's what you maybe do from time to time) you will have delayed your cutlass by ~6 minutes and therefore you got set behind by a TON if you don't have god like decision making and mechanics that would get you kills in lane after that you got the soto(which is a bit unlikely because the other opponent would have(if we use the 1060 g that you got set back with as a reference): One pickaxe + some health and mana pots; or 2 dorans blades + some health and mana pots; or 1 dorans blade + 2 long swords; or 1 vampiric scepter + some health and mana pots There's a lot more things that the other opponent could have gotten out of that 1060 g you didn't use well. So basically, there's only really some (highly unlikely) situation where this WOULD work, and that's if you are uzi on ecstasy and redbull(haven't seen it and probably never will) or if their team feeds you. That's the only time this would pay off better than what the cutlass will do. But for late game, this is indeed a decent option, but that means you have to sacrifice an item, and the only item that I could ever imagine a vayne sacrificing would be her defensive item, which you [u]NEVER[/u] should do in a serious real game (ranked or competitive) and even if you did sacrifice your primary damage items for the Soto, it will not be of great help because you will [u]still[/u] have to grind up some kills during late game to get the full potential out of it. But keep in mind that I excluded the fact that there is an opponent, the fact that not many people are so perfect at csing that they will lasthit every single minion during those 21 minion waves in total. You just have to admit, if I had taken an opponent, the pressure in lane, and the harass and potential of you dying (which would result in minion loss) it would probably look EVEN worse than it already is. Just admit it, soto is a no-buy for vayne[/spoiler][/quote]just as a courtesy to others reading, you might wanna use spoilers for long posts like this. like so: [[[spoiler=wall of text]]]wall of text[[[/spoiler]]] ^^[/quote] I'm really sorry, I just didn't know how to do it, I thought it would automatically be going into that "spoiler" mode. Thanks for showing me, with that I am able to make my posts more readable and attractive to other people (attractive from not being just a giant wall of text, but lines with good portions of information).[/quote]

[quote=Double_E]All of the reasons above, plus the fact that if you get any number of stacks you've basically painted a massive target on yourself. If the enemy team can significantly weaken you by killing you then you can be damned sure they're going to.[/quote]