Graves matchups/synergies help

[quote=Vapora Dark]So I've been writing a [[graves]] guide for months now and it's nearly done, one of the last things I need to do is write about ADC matchups and support synergies. I think I might need some help here because I've only been playing bot lane for a year, and although I've become pretty good at it, my knowledge of matchups is pretty limited. Here's what I have so far, I'd like it if people more experienced could throw in their opinions on it. AD carries [[graves]] is good against: [[corki]], [[draven]], [[ezreal]], [[jinx]], [[kalista]], [[kog'maw]], [[lucian]], [[miss fortune]], [[sivir]], [[tristana]], [[twitch]], [[varus]], [[vayne]]. AD carries [[graves]] is weak against: [[ashe]], [[caitlyn]], [[urgot]]. Supports that are good with Graves: [[alistar]], [[annie]], [[brand]], [[janna]], [[kennen]], [[leona]], [[lulu]], [[nami]], [[nautilus]], [[sona]], [[thresh]], [[zyra]]. Supports that are bad with Graves: [[bard]], [[blitzcrank]], [[braum]], [[morgana]], [[shen]], [[soraka]], [[tahm kench]], [[zilean]]. I want to make sure I've got it all right before I start writing about each individual champion.[/quote]

[quote=Out Of Pancakes]Why do you not like [[braum]] with [[graves]]? Also, I think that botlane matchups are a bit more dictated by the support matchup than the ADc matchup, considering equally skilled players. What would you think of also doing support matchups [[graves]] is good/bad against? But going with ADcs matchups, I'd say that [[jinx]], [[kalista]] and [[draven]] are tricky matchups. Keep in mind that I'm saying this from a support main perspective though.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Not sure about the corki/sivir matchups, both are pretty save picks and can usually trade evenly. I'm also somewhat wondering why you think Bard/Blitzcrank are bad with graves. Braum I can personally understand (relatively low kill potential because Graves needs instant stuns instead). With regards to kennen support, I'm not sure if it's worth considering to pick him if you're not playing Kalista but I've never played him myself so can't tell for sure. Not saying that I disagree, I'd just like to pick your brain on this.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Vynertje]Not sure about the corki/sivir matchups, both are pretty save picks and can usually trade evenly. I'm also somewhat wondering why you think Bard/Blitzcrank are bad with graves. Braum I can personally understand (relatively low kill potential because Graves needs instant stuns instead). With regards to kennen support, I'm not sure if it's worth considering to pick him if you're not playing Kalista but I've never played him myself so can't tell for sure. Not saying that I disagree, I'd just like to pick your brain on this.[/quote] Blitz is great in the ideal circumstance than he can hook people constantly, but most of the time what I feel ends up happening is they miss 80% of them and then I'm essentially 1v2'ing the enemy bot lane until his hook comes back up and the same thing happens. Graves wants to bully the enemy ADC, which he can't do 1v2. It's really hit or miss and most of the time I just feel like I'd rather have any other support when I'm getting supported by a Blitzcrank. I mean it's pretty dependent on the skill of the Blitzcrank really, but I haven't experienced many good Blitzcranks so I'm more inclined to call him generally a bad support, not just with Graves. I've never actually played with Kennen support, I just figured it would be good with [[graves]] seeing as they can probably kill at least one person every time [[kennen]]'s ult's up. As for Bard, I personally feel like he's not good at both killing and bullying. [quote=Out of Pancakes]Why do you not like Braum with Graves? Also, I think that botlane matchups are a bit more dictated by the support matchup than the ADc matchup, considering equally skilled players. What would you think of also doing support matchups Graves is good/bad against?[/quote] Maybe I just have bad experiences with [[braum]]s but it feels like the Blitzcrank thing. They spam Q and sometimes manage to hit it, but otherwise they do nothing and I'm stuck playing a 1v2 until [[braum]] decides to engage an actual fight. I agree, I've mentioned in the guide already that the difficulty of each matchup is actually heavily influenced by the 2 supports, the part I have in the post is just meant to say "Graves on average should win/lose against this ADC", that kinda thing. I don't think there are many supports he does especially well or bad against, so I'm not sure if doing a support matchups would be worth. The only thing I can think of is him doing well against [[soraka]], but that doesn't matter if he doesn't have an engage support that can help him catch [[soraka]]. It's really dependant on the 2v2 matchup as a whole rather than [[graves]] himself IMO, so the better thing to do would be to write about every possible 2v2 combination, which isn't really feasible. :P Nor do I know matchups well enough to write that. [quote=Out Of Pancakes]But going with ADcs matchups, I'd say that Jinx, Kalista and Draven are tricky matchups. Keep in mind that I'm saying this from a support main perspective though.[/quote] You're possibly right about all 3 of them, I'm just not too sure as I've mostly won those matchups, but that might just be luck in the supports department, or just because I was better than them. Also, [[jinx]] seems like she's better than [[graves]] in terms of the 1v1 matchup, but if you have something like [[leona]] then I think [[graves]] beats her no matter what her support is, so it's really support dependant.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]By the way this isn't a guide discussion, it's a [[graves]] matchups discussion. >:l[/quote]

[quote=Out Of Pancakes]I agree with what you said. Maybe it's just me that could play [[braum]] aggressively without getting punished as hard as I should have or my opponents making mistakes. Nevertheless, your point makes sense. But with the matchups being so dependants on the supports, what would you think of explaining a bit of how to play against each support, what to expect from them or do you think it would be too long/boring/not interesting to write?[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend]See if you can 1v1 the gold top laner mindset ^^ I'm also questioning your placement of the Blitz. It could be a very good lane depending on the matchup, he fits in Graves' bursty early/mid game. Let me put it this way: if not with Graves, what ADC is Blitz good with? I have a feeling you just don't like Blitz on its own (wonder why :^)). Not that I think that's a bad thing. And I now see you already said that so rip paragraph. I think that Braum on the other hand isn't good with him because in lane you're not going to get the stacks off in a simple trade. It's not that he's bad with him, but I wouldn't say good either. In my opinion Draven can be tricky because he can actually outtrade you easily if you don't play correctly. I'm also wondering how the new MF does against him in this aspect but I haven't seen much of her yet. I agree with Vynertje, I think Sivir can be dangerous, with the spell shield and decent burst plus the fact that she outranges you with her Q. All things you can play around of course but it's suboptimal. I think Janna (maybe also Nami) can work with Graves but I don't think it's optimal as she's not really able to join in on the all-in aspects. She's great if you can do the lane bully thing though, but I'd call that situational. Another thing in my mind is that Tristana's going to outrange you pretty bad as time goes by, but I'm not sure how much that matters. Regarding Kennen, I think you put Shen in the bad list because you can't really make use of the full E duration in lane and I'd say the same about Kennen's ult. Furthermore his stun takes quite a bit of setup so it's hard for him to join in on the short trades turning into burst battles. Even with his ult it may take a while.[/quote]

[quote=Eistod]I agree with the Blitz, I don't think he is a good support with any ADC, because it is way too easy to dodge his hook or positioning yourself adequately behind some minions.. And if he actually missed you are kinda alone against two.[/quote]

[quote=winston gergill]Maybe you could make a Viable/Decent/Tier 2 list for supports like [[janna]] or [[braum]], who just don't synergize as well with [[graves]] as someone with heavy CC and all-in potential like [[leona]] or [[annie]].[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]professional ad carry reporting in Not sure I completely agree with [[Ashe]], like it's okay for similar reasons to [[Caitlyn]] but she gets really badly messed up if he closes the gap (e.g. he has a kill support) because she doesn't have an escape like Caitlyn does and is basically 100% going to get hit by all his shit. [[Sivir]] is pretty good against Graves if the Sivir player is skilled because she can spellshield Q and R literally every time, although she still has to deal with range disadvantage and less damage when spellshield is down. Other matchups can definitely be bad depending on what happens. [[Corki]] is relatively safe against him I'd say, [[Jinx]]/[[tristana]]/[[Draven]] could go either way depending on supports but imo they generally favour Graves. [[Kalista]] is actually really bad against Graves, I'd say she gets countered by him. You can't trade with him because of his passive + Q damage and you can't really all-in him either because he'll burst you way before you get enough E stacks. It sucks.[/quote]