Is Last Whisper really a good choice for...

[quote=mmmalex]I see a lot of Last Whisper on assassins like Zed and Xin Zhao. Since they usually target more or less squishy ADC's, is it really worth it? [b]Typical ADC build:[/b] [list] Armor from seals = 1,41 * 9 = 12,49 [/list] [list] [/list] [list] Armor from masteries = 5 [/list] [list] [/list] [list] Armor from Randuin’s Omen = 50 [/list] [list] [/list] [list] Total armor = 67,49 [/list] [b]Typical runes/masteries for an ADC/assassin:[/b] [list] Armor pen marks: 1,28 * 9 = 11,52 [/list] [list] [/list] [list] Armor pen from masteries: 6 [/list] [list] [/list] [list] Total armor pen = 17,52 [/list] So mastery + mark armor pen completely removes armor from masteries + seals. The formula for total armor is: [url=http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor]ARMOR / (100 + ARMOR)[/url] If the ADC has built Randuin’s, the formula gives a total armor of 50 / 150 = 33%. This means that 100 – 33 = 67% of an opponent's attack damage counts. Buying a B.F. Sword, the total damage would be 0,67 * 45 = 30,15 . If the opponnent builds Last Whisper, the armor is reduced by 35% giving: 50*0,65 / (100 + 50*0,65) = 32,5 / 132,5 = 24,5% This means that 75,5% of the attack damage counts. As Last Whisper gives 40 AD, it does in total: 40 * 0,755 = 30,2 damage vs someone with Randuin’s. B.F. Sword does a total of 30,15 damage vs someone with Randuin’s and costs 1550 gold while Last Whisper does 30,2 damage and costs 2300. The difference in damage (0,05) is hardly worth the difference in gold (750). Plus, if the game progesses for long you’ll have the option of further upgrading your B.F. Sword to something better. Have I missed something, or is Last Whisper heavily overrated for assassins? Ofc the ADC could build more armor, and there is a value where LW does more damage than let's say Bloodthirster, but shouldn't LW be VERY much situational rather than core?[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]It allows you to target everything rather than squishies. Another point, % applies before flat so with LW you'll be dealing true damage to squishies. Therefore, yes it is worth it.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]Cleaver + LW is core on every ad caster cuz penetration stacks i believe?[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=Embracing] Cleaver + LW is core on every ad caster [/quote][/quote]

[quote=mmmalex]@GrandmasterD: Against the assassins main target, the opposing teams ADC, it would be better to use pure AD IF and only IF the math in the current situation gives more damage output (e.g. if the ADC doesn't have more armor than a randuin's + runes and masteries). Regarding true damage, is there a difference between doing 10 true damage and doing 15 damage that becomes 10 damage after armor calculation? It seems to me that the only thing important is the number of damage actually done. Or is there something special I have missed when it comes to true damage? @Embracing: Yes it stacks, but it's still a math exersice. Cleaver + LW gives you 55% + 10 armPen, which is a helluva lot armPen, but against someone with Randuin's this means: [list] 55% armor penetration = 50-50*0,55 = 27,5 [/list] [list] 10 flat armor penetration = 27,5-10 = 17,5 [/list] [list] New armor according to formula = 17,5 / 117,5 = 15% [/list] Meaning 85% of the damage done from the assassin still counts. Cleaver gives 50 AD and LW 40 AD, which leads to 90*0,85 = 76,5 damage If you instead buy two bloodthirsters (more expensive, but still only taking up two slots), this gives you 140 AD. Using the same math against Randuin's: [list] Damage reduction from Randuin's: 50/150 = 33% [/list] [list] Total damage from two bloodthirsters: 140 * 0,67 = 93,8 damage [/list] [list] [/list] Since there usually are perhaps two tanky opponents (support and pusher) and three more or less squishy (ADC, APC, jungler) and the assassins targets are mainly the squishy ones (quick in and out, and make sure they die) There seem to be two aspects to this: [list] Strategic (like GrandmasterD pointed out): Should the assassin focus on the squishy targets or on all targets [/list] [list] Mathematic: Given that the strategy is set in the team, buy LW if your main target(s) are tankier or buy pure AD if they are squishier. Thus making the LW more of a situational choice rather than an unquestioned must-buy [/list][/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]As a small aside, roughly every champion will have about 100 armor at level 18, barring some extreme cases where they get 0 armor from runes, masteries, self bought items, or even an [[aegis of the legion]] from the support/jungler. So, higher armor to calculate. That fact alone makes LW and/or BC core on assassins/bruisers, depending on how fast they can apply stacks. ([[Talon]] combo, with a hydra/tiamat, would be a [b]perfect[/b] scenario for both, just FYI)[/quote]

[quote=mmmalex]Ok, I don't have that much experience so it's great input about the typical armor level of a lvl18 champ. At the levels I play, I've met Ashe's, Vaynes's etc with 60 or 70 armor including friendly auras. Seems to break even damage wise between 2*BT and LW+BC at around 80 armor (I had old numbers on black cleaver. it does 55 damage not 50 and stacks armpen up to 5 times not 4). Thanks for taking the time to answer![/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=mmmalex] At the levels I play, I've met Ashe's, Vaynes's etc with 60 or 70 armor including friendly auras. [/quote] That's actually their base armor without [b]ANY[/b] auras, runes or masteries at all. I think you might be playing at the non-existant level, or at least something really low, since basically everyone will take armor seals.[/quote]

[quote=nanoobit]You can put all the math you want behind it, but the fact is, any assassin needs armor pen to kill any target, including squishes. What also makes LW better than cleaver on assassins is that LW gives you all the armor pen upfront and right away maximizing initial damage which is what assassins are about. If you look at most builds you see 3 core damage items on any assassin. Damage [[blade of the ruined king]]/[[manamune]]/[[the bloodthirster]], into [[the brutalizer]], into [[last whisper]] often times skipping brutalizer. You could also think of last whisper as a preventative medicine, because the moment a carry buys an armguard/chain vest a lot of kill potential goes out the window without penetration.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]Huge wall-o-text with math for no apparent reason. You don't need to actually calculate the numbers to just realise that LW is just a core item on AD Casters.[/quote]