7.4 Tier List + AMA

[quote=TROLLing1999][quote=GrandmasterD] I dunno, I hardly ever see a [[Kog'Maw]]. He does pretty crazy damage but he's very vulnerable, obviously. [[Vayne]] and [[Jinx]] seem like better options. Regarding [[Lucian]] and [[Twitch]] being popular, especially [[Lucian]]; I think [[Draven]] is seriously underrated atm as he's probably the only ADC who straight up beats [[Lucian]] and overall has more damage output. His mobililty is lower, that I admit, but it's by no means terrible. [/quote] [[twitch]] actually can potentially beat [[lucian]] in lane under the right circumstances due to his potential damage with [[deadly venom]] and [[contaminate]]. Another adc that goes even with [[lucian]] regarding trades is [[graves]] and that's why you often see [[graves]] picked into [[lucian]] in the EU LCS.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=TROLLing1999] [quote=GrandmasterD] I dunno, I hardly ever see a [[Kog'Maw]]. He does pretty crazy damage but he's very vulnerable, obviously. [[Vayne]] and [[Jinx]] seem like better options. Regarding [[Lucian]] and [[Twitch]] being popular, especially [[Lucian]]; I think [[Draven]] is seriously underrated atm as he's probably the only ADC who straight up beats [[Lucian]] and overall has more damage output. His mobililty is lower, that I admit, but it's by no means terrible. [/quote] [[twitch]] actually can potentially beat [[lucian]] in lane under the right circumstances due to his potential damage with [[deadly venom]] and [[contaminate]]. [/quote] Only when he can stealth up to him to get that massive AS boost.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]I don't think Draven straight up beats Lucian by any means. He's probably one of the better lane matchups against him but it can still easily go in Lucian's favour and Lucian is a much safer pick. Both Draven and Twitch are capable of trades and all-ins with Lucian but it requires them to extend it for several autoattacks at least, Lucian will always win quick trades with Q + auto unless he's behind and burst harder with his passive. I quite like Graves against Lucian too, he can push up the wave much faster than Lucian can and he can always trade even in damage because his Q + auto does almost much damage as Lucian's while his passive makes him take less. Lucian has to burn through a lot more mana than Graves in order to keep up with him. I'm pretty sure I've yet to beat a Graves player with Lucian and I play a crap ton of Lucian.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Luther3000] I don't think Draven straight up beats Lucian by any means. He's probably one of the better lane matchups against him but it can still easily go in Lucian's favour and Lucian is a much safer pick. Both Draven and Twitch are capable of trades and all-ins with Lucian but it requires them to extend it for several autoattacks at least, Lucian will always win quick trades with Q + auto unless he's behind and burst harder with his passive. [/quote] [[Lucian]]'s passive gets outdamaged by [[Spinning Axe]] from rank 2 and on. It's fairly easy to get off at least two attacks off before [[Lucian]] can back off if [[Draven]] uses [[Blood Rush]] (properly). A follow-up with [[Stand Aside]] can provide even more issues with [[Lucian]]. Additionally, [[Stand Aside]] can also interrupt [[The Culling]]. Obviously the supports play a big part in any bot lane so it really depends on how much they force and can allow [[Draven]] to have the space he wants, but judging on a one on one basis; [[Draven]] has a pretty big advantage imo. [[Lucian]] is definitely safer though, especially during the later stages of the game.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=SOAC Bas] [quote=Dainou] What made Kog'maw so strong suddenly that he got moved into tier 1? [/quote] His rework, the addition of Braum, the nerfs on kha, annie, and a few others that completely crippled him in lane. [/quote] None of which are actual reasons.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]That's not true, Lucian Q + auto vastly outdamages a single Draven auto at rank 2. Level 3 Lucian Q + auto = 110 + 13.5 + 79 + 39.5 = 242 Level 3 Draven Q + auto = 81 + 44.6 = 125.6 Draven must land two consecutive autoattacks to outdamage and even then it's not by a lot. If you can regularly extend the trades then you're good to go, otherwise it can still be a problematic lane. Whether you can do that or not is very dependant on the supports.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Luther3000] That's not true, Lucian Q + auto vastly outdamages a single Draven auto at rank 2. Level 3 Lucian Q + auto = 110 + 13.5 + 79 + 39.5 = 242 Level 3 Draven Q + auto = 81 + 44.6 = 125.6 Draven must land two consecutive autoattacks to outdamage and even then it's not by a lot. If you can regularly extend the trades then you're good to go, otherwise it can still be a problematic lane. Whether you can do that or not is very dependant on the supports. [/quote] I said the passive itself, not the Q + the passive, because that's obviously not true. However, I did mention that it's fairly easy to get off two autos if you use [[Blood Rush]] correctly; assuming [[Lucian]] doesn't E but then again, that would drain [[Lucian]]'s mana bar really quickly.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]I believe corki can outtrade lucian if corki can land his phosphorous bomb off. It may be a little hard to land phosphorous bomb on him when he gets [[relentless pursuit]], but if you can land a Q + AA on lucian before he gets his dash, or when lucian is CCed, you'll probably win the trade[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=GrandmasterD] I said the passive itself, not the Q + the passive, because that's obviously not true. [/quote] Well I mean in order for Lucian to even use his passive he has to Q first. It's a pretty reasonable assumption to make. [quote=utopus] I believe corki can outtrade lucian if corki can land his phosphorous bomb off. It may be a little hard to land phosphorous bomb on him when he gets Relentless Pursuit, but if you can land a Q + AA on lucian before he gets his dash, or when lucian is CCed, you'll probably win the trade [/quote] Probably, Corki's laning is ridiculous.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Luther3000] [quote=GrandmasterD] I said the passive itself, not the Q + the passive, because that's obviously not true. [/quote] Well I mean in order for Lucian to even use his passive he has to Q first. It's a pretty reasonable assumption to make.[/quote] I didn't say that you shouldn't assume it; I said I was just comparing [[Spinning Axe]] to [[Lightslinger]], as they're both AA modifiers.[/quote]