Riven

[quote=Scott Azrael]Does she suck with ArPen Marks? I know she scales better with AD, but I only have ArPen Marks right now and her damages just seem to suck when I am playing PvP. I just wanted to see if it was my runes or if I just suck with her and should focus on practicing up some other champs for top([[Elise]], [[Renekton]], [[Jax]], [[Rumble]], [[Shen]]).[/quote]

[quote=Forgottenduty]Arp scale better late game, but AD runes on [[Riven]] allows her to dominate harder on the lane phase. I suggest being patient and get the AD runes :) (also they are used on pretty much any ad champ atm).[/quote]

[quote=Scott Azrael]I use ArPen on most AD champs and its what I see on most build guides for AD champs in general. I case that AD marks work the best for Riven because she scales on AD, so I was just wondering if the ArPen marks just suck on her. I was doing almost no damage against a [[Rumble]] when he didn't have a cloth armor early game, so I was just trying to find out if my problem was just my runes...or if I suck at her. I know in general the difference between AD and ArPen runes, I just need to know for her specifically.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]The thing with flat penetration is that armor counters it. For instance, with flat arpen reds and masteries, i think you can get up to like 13 arpen or something like that? Well what i don't like about armor penetration is that 1 [[cloth armor]] totally counters your armor penetration. If your opponent pays 300 gold, he is kinda nullifying the effects of your arpen marks. This does not apply to flat AD though.[/quote]

[quote=Satella][[Riven]] has like 1050% bonus AD scaling on her combo. There is absolutely no reason to use armor penetration runes.[/quote]

[quote=Scott Azrael]So basically, don't bother playing her until I get my AD marks.[/quote]

[quote=Satella]Yes. Also don't bother playing her until you have your stutter-stepping mechanics down solid and know how to weave autos between skills during engagements. Being able to land a perfect AA-Q-AA-Q-AA-Q-AA combo on an enemy running away from you is huge because it's 4 times more damage than somebody just mashing Q three times.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Satella] [[Riven]] has like 1050% bonus AD scaling on her combo. There is absolutely no reason to use armor penetration runes. [/quote] Biggest BS I've seen in my entire life. Armour pen increases overall damage against champions, even with scalings like Riven. Also, that it a maximum damage potential, not hitting a single Q plus a W for example. The only real argument why Riven should use AD over Arp is [[Valor]]. However, I think the bonus is too small. On her, I'd definitely stick with arp marks and AD quints.[/quote]

[quote=Satella][quote=GrandmasterD] Biggest BS I've seen in my entire life. Armour pen increases overall damage against champions, even with scalings like Riven.[/quote] Except you're wrong. How about you back up your claim with some math if you think armor penetration yields higher damage output?[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Satella] [quote=GrandmasterD] Biggest BS I've seen in my entire life. Armour pen increases overall damage against champions, even with scalings like Riven.[/quote] Except you're wrong. How about you back up your claim with some math if you think armor penetration yields higher damage output? [/quote] I'm glad to do some math for you, gonna take some work but I'll do it. Also, I mainly called your thought process wrong. High scalings doesn't necessarily mean that AD beats Arp. In riven's case, I'll check.[/quote]