Riven

[quote=BusDriver210]Honestly, this is a argument that has been repeated numerous times all ending in the same result. Want more damage vs champions? Go with armor pen. Regardless of your ratios, people are going to run armor seals these days and armorpen is the best way to sink into their defenses. For Riven its best to start red pot with Arpen marks, cheese your level 2 for a easy snowball lane. Armor pen is even better this season seeing as flat/percentage penetration is working together rather than against one another.[/quote]

[quote=C4 Lasty]LOL AD on Riven is standard. Why don't look at Best Riven NA's pages. All her skills have ridiculous AD scaling, so you need AD runes...[/quote]

[quote=Satella][quote=BusDriver210] Regardless of your ratios, people are going to run armor seals these days and armorpen is the best way to sink into their defenses. [/quote] Bullshit, the higher armor is, the less effective flat armor pen becomes.[/quote]

[quote=ShortyHUN]Actually flat armor pen is pretty ineffective since S3. Flat ArPen reds make like 5-10 difference even on AD carries who don't build armor. Best way is %reduction or %penetration to pass defenses.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=ShortyHUN] Actually flat armor pen is pretty ineffective since S3. Flat ArPen reds make like 5-10 difference even on AD carries who don't build armor. Best way is %reduction or %penetration to pass defenses. [/quote] What the legitimate fuck? Flat pen got so much stronger in S3 since it now actually scales all the way to late-game. This is because % is applied first. With just a LW, ever point of armour they buy is actually only worth 0.65. So for every 1 armour penetration, they need 1.54 armour to make up for that which is a 54% increase. Hence a Last Whisper boosts your flat pen by 54%.[/quote]

[quote=BusDriver210][quote=C4 Lasty] LOL AD on Riven is standard. Why don't look at Best Riven NA's pages. All her skills have ridiculous AD scaling, so you need AD runes... [/quote] I don't play Riven, so I'll have to give you this one. Regardless Arpen is more effective this season than it ever has been. That is my main point.[/quote]

[quote=Forgottenduty]I am not sure about [[Riven]], but for [[Pantheon]], if you run full Arp(Marks+Quints) you suck very early, but after you get your Brutalizer you become godlike... Also, because there is not that much armor stacking these days, most of my opponents are left with 15, or 25 armor against me untill lvl 6. So at around lvl 6(you have 1300+ gold at that point) you have 24Flat Arp+8%(which is a bit nulified)and +10 after your Brutalizer.So you sit at around 34Arp. Still, even after all this, AD feel more reliable^^ As for [[Riven]], you eventually get both [[Last Whisper]] and [[Black Cleaver]] so Arp runes would be an overkill.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=C4 Lasty] LOL AD on Riven is standard. Why don't look at Best Riven NA's pages. All her skills have ridiculous AD scaling, so you need AD runes... [/quote] Unsure regarding Riven, sure it's effective. I'm not sure if Arp marks prove to be more effective damage-wise but I'll do the math. Though it was mostly a response on the general assumption that high scalings mean that AD > Arp which is plain wrong. Especially with the insane scaling arp now has.[/quote]

[quote=BusDriver210][quote=Forgottenduty]I am not sure about [[Riven]], but for [[Pantheon]], if you run full Arp(Marks+Quints) you suck very early, but after you get your Brutalizer you become godlike.[/quote] I've recently started playing Pantheon, so I'm really happy you brought him up. :D To be clear though, I don't recommend you run Arp quints on anyone. The most effective runes I have found are as listed below. [[Greater Mark of Armor penetration]] [[Greater Seal of Armor]] [[Greater Glyph of Magic resist]] [[Greater Quintessence of attack damage]] This is my personal HAM page, but I have been running [[Greater glyph of Cooldown reduction]] or [[Greater glyph of attack damage]] in certain situations. I don't play Riven, but this page works wonders on Pantheon. I think we can all agree AD is important, but with the changes to penetration Arp is just soooo good I wouldn't pass it up.[/quote]

[quote=Forgottenduty]Looks solid my fellow Mantheon :D[/quote]