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Questions: How to carry?

Creator: Ixtellor April 7, 2015 11:22am
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Ixtellor
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I need help on some aspects of carrying. This is not a "my team is bad" thread. Everyone gets bad teams and I know I have to be expected to win the game regardless.

Scenario 1:
Your team decides to do baron at a bad time and you are the jungler. Call it a 50/50 chance of getting away with it. You can't talk them out of it.
1A) Do you as the Jungler go help, or do you let 4 of them try to pull it off. IE do you push a different lane, farm a big wave, etc?
2A) If you do help, and you are the jungler, but all 5 enemies are coming --- do you disengage from the Baron say (3k hitpoints left) and shift to the team fight, or do you focus on the baron and make sure you get the smite off.

Scenario 2:
You have a player on your team who is doing awful. 0-13, no cs, can be solo killed by any enemy including the support. OR they are just AFK.

You are leading your team in CS, gold, levels, and equipment. You have no trouble winning a 1v2 or maybe even a 1v3. But your team loses every 4v5 teamfight.

Scenario 3)
Your team is capable of sitting outside the enemy base and keeping them trapped inside, but you are not capable of fighting them under tower.
1) Is it best to just keep enemy in base.. indefinetly so they get no farm, or... don't do that and just push lanes and take dragons, steal enemy buffs?

How do you carry them to a win regardless?
Do you just have to individually take down towers/inhibs?
Do you have to play a hyper carry like Riven, etc?

I ask because I have been having some, what feel like, good games as Volibear.
I started one game 14-0 with a ton of towers and dragons and still lost the game. Could not win a team fight. I tried chasing off enemy carries (adc + top + ap) and then watched a wukong ace my carries.
I tried peeling gap closers off my carries, to no avail.

I have tried not taking kills and and giving them to my carries so that I get lots of assists instead of kills, but then I feel like we just end up losing the fights and not taking objectives. (not on the good teams).

Basically, I can't figure out how to take a bad team into the enemy base, win the fight, and get the tower + inhib even when I am full build and 2 levels on the enemy. Is it because I'm volibear?

So I end up with tons of games where my team just sits outside the enemy base, trying to seige, never winning a single team fight because it was under enemy tower or one of us leaves to push another lane then we get wiped in a 4v5.

How would a Diamond one player win a 1v5?
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
utopus
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1. Too broad to answer.
If your opponents have strong initiate or your team has weak disengage, and your opponents have vision of you guys doing dragon, then you're ****ed.
If your opponents don't have vision of you guys doing dragon, and you have a forward pushing minion wave and you're a jungler that should be able to take towers pretty quickly ( Lee Sin, Vi e.g.) it might be worth it to push a distant side lane, and kind of act as a distraction.
1b. Too broad to answer. In general, you want to gauge what your opponents want. If your opponents want to initiate to try to get baron, make them work for it - make them deal the last 2k damage to baron: don't make their life easy. If they initiate trying to get baron, just peel off baron and start team fighting.
if your opponents want to initiate to team fight, then it's a little more complicated...
If you can kill the baron fast (6 item Jinx e.g.) then it's probably worth it to just do baron, since it'd take like 1.5 seconds for jinx to nuke down that baron.
If you can't kill the baron fast, or if your opponents have assassins, and your opponents have already initiated WHEN YOUR BARON'S AT 3K HP, it's probably best to just stop doing baron and start team fighting. It depends largely on how your team is positioned, and whether your team is getting pincered, or whether it's just an assassin flanking your ADC.
If your opponents have mages or champions that deal a lot of damage over time, i'd just immediately switch off baron and towards the team fight - again, it depends on positioning though.

2. Don't 4v5 team fight. If your opponents really want to 4v5 team fight, then just tell your team to not be there. Defend by waveclearing minions as safely as your can. Utilize forward vision to see if your opponents are pincering you, and try and kill one end of the pincer before they collapse on you while you are splitting. If you don't get towers, you'll lose. If you get an inhib, you might be able to bring your team back into the game... If you're opponents know what they are doing, you shouldn't be able to win this though.

3. If there are objectives to take elsewhere (tier 2 towers, buffs) those are preferrable to locking down your opponents. If there are no other objectives to be taken, then just have patience, progress. Just have your ADC whittle down your opponents inhib tower with 1-2 AAs every wave. You don't need to do LCS big plays, just whittle the tower down.

How do you carry them to a win regardless? Create map pressure.
Do you just have to individually take down towers/inhibs? Yes, but be smart about it.
Do you have to play a hyper carry like Riven, etc? Usually.

Basically, I can't figure out how to take a bad team into the enemy base, win the fight, and get the tower + inhib even when I am full build and 2 levels on the enemy. Is it because I'm volibear?
It's partially because you're volibear. It's partially because you haven't given your allies enough of an item advantage to compensate for their suckiness. If you can't siege towers successfully, then don't. Just get neutral objectives like D5 or baron, and win off the the OP-ness of those buffs.

A D1 player probably wouldn't be able to win a 1v5 vs silvers. Athene can hardly win 1v5s against 5 level 1 new players. When he does win, it's because he creates an unaddressable kind of map presence through taking turrets and threatening to take inhibs.
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Ixtellor
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utopus wrote:
1. Too broad to answer.
If your opponents have strong initiate or your team has weak disengage, and your opponents have vision of you guys doing dragon, then you're ****ed.


Sooo how do you carry your way out of that then? Your team is ****ed, how do you singled handedly 'un****' it?

Quoted:
2. Don't 4v5 team fight. If your opponents really want to 4v5 team fight, then just tell your team to not be there. Defend by waveclearing minions as safely as your can. Utilize forward vision to see if your opponents are pincering you, and try and kill one end of the pincer before they collapse on you while you are splitting. If you don't get towers, you'll lose. If you get an inhib, you might be able to bring your team back into the game... If you're opponents know what they are doing, you shouldn't be able to win this though.


5 enemy champs are pushing mid and you only have 4, from afk or feeder who got caught or he is farming wolves, etc
You said "dont fight". How? Do you leave and force your team to 3v5 defend your base?

If you all leave the base and push another lane, they just push nexus and win...

All I can think of, is retreat to the Nexus towers where you have more defense? Is that enough to win the 5v4?

Quoted:
How do you carry them to a win regardless? Create map pressure.

Quoted:
Do you just have to individually take down towers/inhibs? Yes, but be smart about it.

Quoted:
Do you have to play a hyper carry like Riven, etc? Usually.


Ok, so I have like a 60% win rate on Volibear and that is why I have stuck with him, but I play a MEAN Udyr and can create a TON more map pressure with him and better able to solo towers --- sounds like I should just switch back to him.
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
Fat_fast
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Scenario 1:
  • Unless the baron is the tiebreaker, don't go with a 50-50 on such bad term; scanned around, give hints that you're doing baron while someone pushing the wave, then stall them from backing to defend.
  • In your case, 80 out a 100 solo queue, stick with the team even if they make terrible choices, the worst is that you're all wiped out, compare to the best of it would be you, alone, getting banged by 5 dudes.
Scenario 2: Too long for me to type, and if one of you is basically useless in a game, you're pretty much done over... This scenario can be further classified with stage.
  • If it's early, completely destroy your lane opponent and take the outer turret before roaming, plant some deep ward and kill the jungler often. Now you have one deadbeat, they have 2, and one of them is responsible for smiting things and global presence, which should offset the balance at your favor. If you're jungling, do all the things in the above anywhere apply to you, get a sweeper, gank 24/7 on anything you can kill, and get objective.
  • In mid game, people do 2 things, scatter-farm to get item or push. If they scatter-farm, anticipate their route with deep ward or an overextended deadbeat, proceed to killing or trade it off with 4vs4 objective or force a fight. Pushing, most likely mid, try your very best to screw them over at teamfight once, if they think they can't win you yet, they will scatter farm, which will buy your team more time and you the opportunity to crush their spirit and farming. Things to notice: outer turret, dragons, sweeper and deep ward.
  • Late game, I don't have a lot of confidence in the late game in low Elo match, part of it because nothing ever goes according to plan, either your team screw up result in a regretful loss or the enemy's carry die a dog's dead which make you question the term average intelligence. I'm torn between telling you to split push while your team stall a 4vs5 and sticking with your team through thick and thin and let consequences be damned. Best of judgement my friend, step gingerly.
Scenario 3:
  • This is easy. Just shove all 3 waves up the enemy base and watch them squirm, divided they die, stick together for a 5-for-the-price-of-1 grave. You're making too much out of this, with such dominant control like that, you could just wait for the later stage of the game before you systematically stick a custom-made 50 inches long pole through their corpse.
  • Take baron, if you don't have the time. For a good example, I suggest watching the recent LCS between SKT T1 and Jin air IIRC, as the 5 member abuse the baron buff while playing it safe at the same time(4 members alternating between top-mid whilst bot reserved for the top laner or vice versa).
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And just for the heck of it, systematic winning consist of:
  1. Pushing down one inhibitor.
  2. Proceed to push the remaining two while the super minion light a fire under the enemy's butt. Unless your carry thinks he's a tank and dive in head first into the turret, you will take down another inhibitor in time. I prefer top lane, close to the Baron and all.
  3. Rinse and repeat with the 3rd, may include destroy the 1st inhibitor again and/or taking baron.
Respect the super minion, at worst, it will take a champ on their team to fend them off result in a 4vs5 siege and at best, 5vs5 Mexican stand off with super pushing down Nexus.
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Quoted:
Sooo how do you carry your way out of that then? Your team is ****ed, how do you singled handedly 'un****' it?


You start by just not being there, unless you think that your team (that's probably at 60% HP + has baron aggro) can take on a full HP team with a strong initiate. If you're an assassin like Kha'Zix, Talon, or LeBlanc, you can try picking off an ADC before they get to baron... That might be enough pressure to make them stop in their tracks.
Other things you can do may be trying to push down an inhib turret / inhib, but when I say that you're ****ed, it means in most situations that it's impossible for you to single handedly un**** it.

Quoted:

You said "dont fight". How? Do you leave and force your team to 3v5 defend your base?

Tell them to waveclear as hard as they can. Sieging turrets is a lot more difficult to do without minions. You'll have to leave your base, else you'll have no map pressure, and you won't be taking full advantage of your item lead over your opponents.
If your team loses 1 inhib, things will start looking ugly. 2 inhibs is probably gg unless your opponents throw hard.

If you have a 60% win rate on Volibear i'd say keep going with him. There's a reason why you have a 60% win rate with him, despite running into these situations.
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Win your lane. Roam to help other lanes. If you are always winning your lane your chances will be high to continue to rank up. Attempt to control objectives through typing to team. Also. When some one trolls don't say a word. This seems to help me
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Ixtellor
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Still experiencing same problems. At my level I do well in CS, I get lots of towers, I roam and get other lanes towers... and still get insanely frustrating losses.

Going back to same basic understanding I lack.
I am top Garen I am 6-0 with 2 towers, I run mid get 2 towers, I go bottom get a tower... Other team is fed --- thats fine, I can't control that. To avoid team fighting with heavily fed teams, I push objectives and force enemy to react to me.

So In my last 4 losses, its the same thing over and over --- 3-4 champs rotate to me to save a tower/inhib --- my team does NOTHING in the absence of 3-4 champs. So I die or run away.... nothing on the map changes. I am not blaming my team, I know I have to carry them to victory --- But I haven't cracked the code of how to carry poor teams.

I honestly can not figure out how to carry a team even when I am way ahead in my lane and then roam to other lanes.


Side question: Can normal victories raise your ELO? I played in a few normals to experiment with some builds --- and they are all ridiculously easy. Multiple inhibs by 20 min mark. So trying to figure out if I should grind normals to raise ELO.

Thanks in advance for any advice on how to carry a bad team (50% of the time my team is good, 50% bad thats just odds)
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
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The game does not use ELO anymore, it uses MMR/LP. Playing normal games does not affect your ranked MMR, and playing ranked games does not affect your normal MMR. Top lane is not the best to carry from in my opinion because even when you do a successful teleport gank and turn around a teamfight bot lane it could cost you a CS lead or a tower. If you're playing jungle, try to play a champion who has good clears and can gank well early like Xin Zhao, Volibear, or Vi. If you gank top at level three and cause the top laner to get 1st blood it will cause them to snowball hard, and then you can look to help bot or mid lane. Mid lane is also a good spot to carry from because it is very easy to roam and get kills.

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windmills wrote:
The game does not use ELO anymore, it uses MMR/LP.


Your MMR is based on the ELO system. Your ELO is no longer visible, but it's still determining how good you are. Every game uses some kind of ranking system, and whatever scheme you show to the player (League LP, Hearthstone Stars, Starcraft MMR) ELO is still buried in there.
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