Sort of new Player with a few champion...

[quote=Dieuitami]Hello fellow summoners! My name is Dieuitami and I was hoping you could answer a few questions of mine about the champions Talon and Shen. I'll start with Talon first and try to provide all necessary information so answering my questions can be very simple. Thank you in advance! Talon I was wondering if a talon pre-s5 patch 4.21 jungle is possible? I've taken a small liking to jungling and basic junglers like yi, xin zhao and warwick. I was hoping to add talon to the list. I want to use talon because I personally haven't seen him a lot and I thought it'd be cool to use a character that doesn't get used that much, at least in my time of play (I'm lvl 20 now). The more practical reason for his use is I think he has awesome gank potential especially post-6. With that being said, I'm well aware he takes huge damage from jungle monsters and have been trying to find a path for him. Right now the only decent path he's been able to survive is wolves, red buff, recall, blue buff, and I died at gromp though I could've gone wolves again which I believe would have gotten me to level 3. So I was wondering at lvl 20, with only 20 runes and 20 masteries available, is it possible/worth to talon jungle? I think I should also note I haven''t tried jungling with a leash early so that might making the first camp, and thus the rest of the path, easier. Meaning I might be able to start gromp or golems instead of wolves. Shen For shen, I was wondering how to effectively lane with him to get cs, particularly against "tanky bruisers" (I think that's the right term, if not think darius or jarvan 4)? I find that I struggle poking down my opponents with shen's q as it seems to not do much damage and am forced to defensively play under turret losing a lot of cs. When I go against non-tanks it's usually not that significant because once I back and get some armor I can take the advantage but against even slightly tanky or sustain characters I struggle. When my build gets going I usually do my job well mid-late game, but it is reliant on my team also doing well. I would like to be more effective in the early laning phase so I'm not so heavily reliant on my teammates doing well for me to be a factor. Forgot to mention the reason I like shen is because I'm a fan of his ult and his e though I need to work on landing the e better. Thanks for reading and deciphering the two blobs of text above. Any advice that could answer my questions would be great! Even if you can't answer my questions themselves, advice on the two champions in general such as other roles they play(I believe talon is usually mid in this meta) or tips would be appreciated as well. Thank you again and Happy New Year![/quote]

[quote=Savlonic][icon=Talon size=50] I personally think [[talon]] jungle is a waste of time with how strong he can be in mid lane. You probably can make it work but the amount of pots you would have to buy each back early would make it hardly worth it over a more sustain oriented jungle. [icon=Shen size=50] [[Shen]] is in a really rough spot right now, the [[shadow dash]] buff was a step in the right direction but it'll take a lot more to make him a 'good' pick again. Poking down tanks like [[Maokai]], [[dr. mundo]] and [[malphite]] in lane is more or less impossible and you just want to make it a farm lane, they alone don't have much kill pressure (except mundo), especially once you have MR going for you. Bruisers such as [[Aatrox]], [[darius]], [[Jax]], [[irelia]] are a bit rough to deal with, you can poke them down more easily than a tank, however they have more damage than the tanks and can actually force kills, some even have decent sustain or ways to restore health such as [[Aatrox]]'s [[Blood thirst]] or [[irelia]]'s [[hiten style]]. Ranged physical damage are a pain to deal with as well however some are easier to poke effectively than others. [[Gnar]] is by far the easiest of them to harass due to his low health in mini form, on top of that most [[gnar]]s don't build defensively until their two damage items are complete. [[Jayce]] is a bit more rough because of his percentage damage once he goes head on head in melee, and steroid poke not to mention [[acceleration gate]] also gives move speed to avoid your [[shadow dash]]. If you're against an ADC top you should consider yourself blessed unless it's [[vayne]], [[draven]], [[lucian]], or [[kalista]] as they're very easy to catch and kill early. Mage tops are the bane to any melee's existence and can single handedly shut down you having an early game, [[Vladimir]], [[swain]], [[lissandra]], [[annie]], [[viktor]], all of them have components to cheese melee's, early damage/harass advantage, and incredible presence later on. You can't really do anything alone to deal with them either unless they make huge misplays which is hard for them to do in the first play anyways. All you can really do is get shoved under tower and try to get ganks on them as often as possible, or shove lane as fast as you can when they're not present then roam as much as you can until they take your outer tower.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]I liked jungle Talon in season 4. It was never really strong, but he [i]could[/i] jungle, and in the right meta he could have been good. But a lot of things would have needed to change for that meta to happen, and predictably, it didn't. I haven't bothered even trying him in season 5 because the current jungle is waaay too strong for him to deal with. The only way Talon could ever be viable this season is if every tier 1 jungler gets nerfed to tier 2 and every tier 2 jungler gets nerfed to tier 3. And then Talon gets jungle buffs. [i]Then[/i] he might actually be considered a serious candidate for the jungle. Right now it's just hopeless trying to jungle him, so I strongly recommend you don't bother with it. Talon is decent in mid lane and "doable" in top lane, but jungle right now is just a complete no no.[/quote]

[quote=Dieuitami]Thank you both for your answers! After doing some testing I figured talon wouldn't succeed jungle and I'd have to do something else with him. I actually had a rather good game with him yesterday in mid lane (16/8/15) so I might try to work on my mid laning with him. Going to try and improve my map awareness so I can roam with talon and supplement other lanes with ganks to partially satisfy my jungling desires. The information you provided on shen has me believe that it is important to coordinate with my jungler. I'm going to practice freezing lanes so even if I can't poke someone down I can still somewhat farm and hope my jungler will come through while the enemy is pushed up. Thanks for the advice :)[/quote]