When do you build Deathcap?

[quote=Hatted]So, I don't play many champions who build a lot of AP, but I'm curious as to when I'm supposed to build it. After watching a bit of world's I noticed Lulu's and Veigar building Unholy Grail and immideatly afterwards deathcap. When do you build it? Do you build it differently on different champs? What are some champions/situations that you wouldn't build it in? Help me out here.[/quote]

[quote=Kazega]THere is an excellent reason for these though. RDB's Passive makes it so that Veigar's [[Baleful Strike]] becomes worth 1.4 AP per stack. so It is usefulk as a second item there easily. as for Lulu her [[Whimsy]] scales AP, giving an ally more movement speed based on how much AP Lulu happens to have plus [[Help, Pix!]]'s sheild scales AP as well. as far as building RDB as a second item, well that depends. [[Orianna]] seems like another choice that can use it well but that's it as far as early building goes. most everyone else works with something else a little better because the straight AP is just not that great early on.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki][quote=Kazega]RDB's Passive makes it so that Veigar's [[Baleful Strike]] becomes worth 1.4 AP per stack. so It is usefulk as a second item there easily.[/quote]The pattern here is that most items scale better FOR DAMAGE than deathcap early on. If you want more damage on [[ahri]] you build a luden's, not a deathcap as a first item. Lulu transforms a lot of her AP into utility (and that's most of the reason why she's picked on a solo lane at all, to have further utility on hypercarries), which means that "more damage" is not what she needs, but instead "more AP so I can help more". In this case you start with mana regen/CDR and then go after rabadon's because it doesn't scale THAT well if you can't spam spells :P This is also the reason why [[janna]] has deathcap as a recommended item (or at least she had it some time ago). Veigar is just a high AP ratio mage with a built-in AP generator. This means that a second item deathcap gives similar AP to a third item deathcap on other champions (on top of the huge AP ratios), so you're sometimes better off with rab's for damage. This also means magic penetration (void staff) becomes pretty mandatory if that's your build path. This is obviously an oversimplification, since most AP items give more than just damage (zhonya's active, rilay's slow, other raw stats like armor/mr/movespeed/health), so that's a whole different analysis you'll have to do before buying deathcap. Personally I find myself buying it either as a 5th/6th item when I want to nuke people, and definetly after luden's. But that's because I only play fizz on mid, and there are a lot of priority buys before a deathcap for him.[/quote]

[quote=KatariFIRE]It depend on champion. For [[Katarina]] I will first buy [[Zonya]] then [[Ludent]] and [[Deathcap]] as 3rd item. I honestly skip Deathcap in many game, because other item provide some effect I really need.[/quote]

[quote=KatariFIRE]It depend on champion. For [[Katarina]] I will first buy [[Zonya]] then [[Ludent]] and [[Deathcap]] as 3rd item. I honestly skip Deathcap in many game, because other item provide some effect I really need.[/quote]

[quote=Kazega][quote=KatariFIRE]It depend on champion. For [[Katarina]] I will first buy [[Zonya]] then [[Ludent]] and [[Deathcap]] as 3rd item. I honestly skip Deathcap in many game, because other item provide some effect I really need.[/quote]This is wrong and I'll tell you why: Kat actually scales MPen better than AP the reason is because [[death Lotus]] is 10 individual attacks with a cap that is stated in the tool tip. so because it isn't on big attack but 10 small attacks it is actually better to build Resistance reduction items first. In all honesty I never build RDC on Kat because AP isn't that great for her. in fact Kat is probably the one AP caster that doesn't build RDC because she can only carry 6 items and other items are just better for her.[/quote]

[quote=Ekki][quote=Kazega][quote=KatariFIRE]It depend on champion. For [[Katarina]] I will first buy [[Zonya]] then [[Ludent]] and [[Deathcap]] as 3rd item. I honestly skip Deathcap in many game, because other item provide some effect I really need.[/quote]This is wrong and I'll tell you why: Kat actually scales MPen better than AP the reason is because [[death Lotus]] is 10 individual attacks with a cap that is stated in the tool tip. so because it isn't on big attack but 10 small attacks it is actually better to build Resistance reduction items first. In all honesty I never build RDC on Kat because AP isn't that great for her. in fact Kat is probably the one AP caster that doesn't build RDC because she can only carry 6 items and other items are just better for her.[/quote]Last time I checked, there wasn't any "reduces magic resist by X per hit" item. Magic penetration is good on her because of her obnoxious damage, since it stacks multiplicatively with it, while AP only scales linearly.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]All AP burst champions buy DCap. Most standard mages like Lulu and Ori go for Athenes / Morello's --> Zhonya / Dcap / Ludens --> Zhonya / Dcap / Ludens / Void and just fill out the list Dcap is normally what you buy second, third, or fourth on mages[/quote]

[quote=Phil Collins]It depends on the mage. Some guys who have high AP ratios like Malzahar would probably want deathcap earlier, whereas if you have good base values like Brand you can hold off buying deathcap until your 5th or 6th item.[/quote]

[quote=MungoGeri]General rule of thumb: If your mage character's skills are based mostly or entirely on dealing damage, you want to get a [[void staff]] before [[rabadon's deathcap]]. This is because magic penetration multiplies the *base* damage as well as the AP damage whereas the passive on [[rabadon's deathcap]] only multiplies the AP damage. For example, I ran the numbers on [[zyra]] and [[ziggs]] and found that [[void staff]] did much more damage than [[rabadon's deathcap]] for them -- even when the enemy only had 50 MR. I'm sure the situation is the same for [[katarina]]. On the other hand, if your mage character's abilities gain non-damage utility from AP, then the situation gets trickier. For example, AP helps [[lulu]]'s shield, ult heal, speed boost from W, and slow from Q. In this kind of a case, [[rabadon's deathcap]] should be built before [[void staff]].[/quote]