Views: 4261 Lament of a Jungler - My Thoughts on the Jungle Change
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Just as a little insight into the situation, Guinsoo posted on the US forums and twitter a while ago (since he doesn't post on the EU at all - I might get some of this wrong, but from a collection of tweets and posts, I've found a lot of it out myself) about a few jungle changes/reworks that will be coming in soon.
Edit: Here's a link to some of the stuff caught on his twitter. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=223225&d=1310934858
Basically, to sum it up -
1. Reduces effectiveness of counter-jungling
2. Decreases camp respawn times, but decreases XP gained
3. Red buff no longer slows, but gives you a speed boost
4. Creep camps hit lower, making jungling completely sustainable for almost all champions
5. Allow lower level players to be able to jungle without runes/masteries
6. Allow more champions to be able to jungle
7. Makes Smite 'no longer essential' for junglers
Now, I'm COMPLETELY against ALL of these changes, with the exception being possibly number 3 depending on how it works (though I'll more than likely be against it). Some sound great, though they're sugar coated, take number 6, it could say "Makes creeps hit significantly lower so it takes less effort to jungle", though it means the same, due to obvious bias. Here's why.
My main reasoning is that it GREATLY decreases the skill it takes to jungle. Every single one of those is a blatant "LOL" to jungling with skill, and jungling really isn't hard at the moment as it is. All you do is kill creeps in a jungle and gank occasionally.
I'm mostly against the reduction of skill (of what little skill there was in the first place), it basically sticks a couple of fingers up to junglers. If we can't counter jungle effectively because of the respawn timers, then there's honestly no point doing it, hence, there's no point risking your life for minimal XP in a jungle that's going to respawn soon anyway. Not to mention that without the XP from that camp, they will survive in the jungle anyway due to the creeps hitting for less.
1. This itself makes counterjungling, the only truly skilled part of jungling, worse. It's better that you can risk your life to slightly damage an opponent's jungle. Without this, junglers wouldn't be able to show any form of skill or expertise in anything other than dragon control and to a lesser extent, ganks. Removing this would greatly decrease the skill ceiling for junglers such as Warwick - if a level 1 player can do it as good as the best in the game, where's the scope for improvement?
Counter jungling isn't unfair, both champions can do it, and usually, champions that can counter jungle well are poor at deflecting counter jungling against their own jungle, Shaco is a perfect example.
2. Mainly, see above. Doing this would decrease effectiveness of counter jungling. There's no real reason why this change needs to happen, too.
3. I like where you're going with it. Red buff does make it extremely hard to escape if you're in melee range, but just keep Flash as it is and it's fine, well, more than fine considering the difficulty of the creep. If you're really THAT insistent on changing, just reduce the slow %. Removing the slow would make so many champions horrendous without completely changing their kit.
You could do a lot with it, just don't make it force junglers' ganks to be so bad that most of them can't. A lot of junglers rely on red as it is.
4. What's the point of picking Warwick, Cho'gath or someone like Udyr then? I realise this will, again, make it easier to jungle, but where's the fun in that? There's loads of great starter junglers such as Warwick and Cho who can clear the jungle easily - new players don't NEED to start with Gangplank at summoner level 1. Doing this would, again, take skill out of jungling. If you're always running around your jungle with high health all the time it, again, reduces effectiveness of counter jungling, which is bad.
5. As I mentioned before, there are junglers that allow this. Cho'gath, for example, can clear the jungle with 8 masteries alone. There's no reason why new players should want to jungle with Riven, GP, Jarvan and Nocturne (for example), good junglers with low sustainability. Throwing them in at the deep end and letting them play naturally hard junglers could end up being detrimental in the long run.
6. Like it on paper, but that would mean there's still going to be 'the best' junglers. Buffing champions indirectly, by nerfing the jungle, would buff them ALL, not just the worst. It means champions can run around killing creeps better, but that's about it. It won't make them more viable than other junglers except in very special cases. Again, doing this would make counter jungling worse, so I'm against it.
7. No. Just no. I don't want junglers without Smite running around. Like it or not, without Smite, your buffs, dragons and baron will be stolen if you can't secure them for the team. In any case, your team will need Smite, and I doubt you'll supports running around with it any time soon.
I'm all for change, don't get me wrong, but I don't like change for the better, not the worse, and I feel this will make jungling anti-fun, devoid of skill, and boring. If these changes pass, there's nothing you can do as a jungler to turn the game around yourself, as you'll have no direct impact in anything, really. You can't counter jungle because of the creep changes, you can't gank as well because of the red buff change. They can't even secure Dragon or Baron for their team if Smite ends up being a bad choice.
I'd love to get some feedback from Riot as to why they're doing this ridiculous change. I hope this never gets changed. It's absolutely foolish.
I like jungling's complexity, even though you don't NEED to do anything complex to be successful. I like adapting to my current situation. I like the fact that even though it's going around killing creeps, in essence, it still requires a lot of thought. I like that you can make a huge difference if you play properly, just like any other lane. I like jungling. Don't take any of these away from me, Riot.
I've never properly thanked you for my haven which has been the jungle, I love almost everything about it - and I apologise for doing this. Junglers are already an undervalued member of the team, and there's even an ongoing joke of "Blame the jungler for everything", one even I myself humour at. The jungle is fine as it is, don't do that "If it isn't broken, break it" mentality.
Edit: Here's a link to some of the stuff caught on his twitter. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=223225&d=1310934858
Basically, to sum it up -
1. Reduces effectiveness of counter-jungling
2. Decreases camp respawn times, but decreases XP gained
3. Red buff no longer slows, but gives you a speed boost
4. Creep camps hit lower, making jungling completely sustainable for almost all champions
5. Allow lower level players to be able to jungle without runes/masteries
6. Allow more champions to be able to jungle
7. Makes Smite 'no longer essential' for junglers
Now, I'm COMPLETELY against ALL of these changes, with the exception being possibly number 3 depending on how it works (though I'll more than likely be against it). Some sound great, though they're sugar coated, take number 6, it could say "Makes creeps hit significantly lower so it takes less effort to jungle", though it means the same, due to obvious bias. Here's why.
My main reasoning is that it GREATLY decreases the skill it takes to jungle. Every single one of those is a blatant "LOL" to jungling with skill, and jungling really isn't hard at the moment as it is. All you do is kill creeps in a jungle and gank occasionally.
I'm mostly against the reduction of skill (of what little skill there was in the first place), it basically sticks a couple of fingers up to junglers. If we can't counter jungle effectively because of the respawn timers, then there's honestly no point doing it, hence, there's no point risking your life for minimal XP in a jungle that's going to respawn soon anyway. Not to mention that without the XP from that camp, they will survive in the jungle anyway due to the creeps hitting for less.
1. This itself makes counterjungling, the only truly skilled part of jungling, worse. It's better that you can risk your life to slightly damage an opponent's jungle. Without this, junglers wouldn't be able to show any form of skill or expertise in anything other than dragon control and to a lesser extent, ganks. Removing this would greatly decrease the skill ceiling for junglers such as Warwick - if a level 1 player can do it as good as the best in the game, where's the scope for improvement?
Counter jungling isn't unfair, both champions can do it, and usually, champions that can counter jungle well are poor at deflecting counter jungling against their own jungle, Shaco is a perfect example.
2. Mainly, see above. Doing this would decrease effectiveness of counter jungling. There's no real reason why this change needs to happen, too.
3. I like where you're going with it. Red buff does make it extremely hard to escape if you're in melee range, but just keep Flash as it is and it's fine, well, more than fine considering the difficulty of the creep. If you're really THAT insistent on changing, just reduce the slow %. Removing the slow would make so many champions horrendous without completely changing their kit.
You could do a lot with it, just don't make it force junglers' ganks to be so bad that most of them can't. A lot of junglers rely on red as it is.
4. What's the point of picking Warwick, Cho'gath or someone like Udyr then? I realise this will, again, make it easier to jungle, but where's the fun in that? There's loads of great starter junglers such as Warwick and Cho who can clear the jungle easily - new players don't NEED to start with Gangplank at summoner level 1. Doing this would, again, take skill out of jungling. If you're always running around your jungle with high health all the time it, again, reduces effectiveness of counter jungling, which is bad.
5. As I mentioned before, there are junglers that allow this. Cho'gath, for example, can clear the jungle with 8 masteries alone. There's no reason why new players should want to jungle with Riven, GP, Jarvan and Nocturne (for example), good junglers with low sustainability. Throwing them in at the deep end and letting them play naturally hard junglers could end up being detrimental in the long run.
6. Like it on paper, but that would mean there's still going to be 'the best' junglers. Buffing champions indirectly, by nerfing the jungle, would buff them ALL, not just the worst. It means champions can run around killing creeps better, but that's about it. It won't make them more viable than other junglers except in very special cases. Again, doing this would make counter jungling worse, so I'm against it.
7. No. Just no. I don't want junglers without Smite running around. Like it or not, without Smite, your buffs, dragons and baron will be stolen if you can't secure them for the team. In any case, your team will need Smite, and I doubt you'll supports running around with it any time soon.
I'm all for change, don't get me wrong, but I don't like change for the better, not the worse, and I feel this will make jungling anti-fun, devoid of skill, and boring. If these changes pass, there's nothing you can do as a jungler to turn the game around yourself, as you'll have no direct impact in anything, really. You can't counter jungle because of the creep changes, you can't gank as well because of the red buff change. They can't even secure Dragon or Baron for their team if Smite ends up being a bad choice.
I'd love to get some feedback from Riot as to why they're doing this ridiculous change. I hope this never gets changed. It's absolutely foolish.
I like jungling's complexity, even though you don't NEED to do anything complex to be successful. I like adapting to my current situation. I like the fact that even though it's going around killing creeps, in essence, it still requires a lot of thought. I like that you can make a huge difference if you play properly, just like any other lane. I like jungling. Don't take any of these away from me, Riot.
I've never properly thanked you for my haven which has been the jungle, I love almost everything about it - and I apologise for doing this. Junglers are already an undervalued member of the team, and there's even an ongoing joke of "Blame the jungler for everything", one even I myself humour at. The jungle is fine as it is, don't do that "If it isn't broken, break it" mentality.
Sincerely,
Xenasis, a concerned jungler.
Xenasis, a concerned jungler.
Smite was never essential.
It was always a luxury for baron/dragon/buff control.
No it wasn't.
A "luxury" that's so good that you'd always take it and if you don't you'd be destroyed is essential.
I challenge you to find me ANY pro game where the 'jungler' doesn't have smite.
It was always a luxury for baron/dragon/buff control.
It wasn't Morello who proposed this, it was Guinsoo. Here is a link to all his posts on the topic: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=223225&d=1310934858. Absolutely ******ed. Jungling is my vacation from having to carry hard mid lane all the time. <3 Lee Sin I will still love thee.
Thanks for the link. I'll add it to the thread and the blog tomorrow, I need to sleep first.
It honestly looks like they're trying to completely ruin the game for Season 2.
Agreed. At this rate I'll be seriously looking into switching to DotA 2 - depending on the state of the game after Riot have finished shoving their ****s in it for no real reason.
You might want to link to Morello's post, because I've been looking for ten minutes and can't find it for the life of me.
Completely can't find a link for the life of me. Saw a collection of Twitter screenshots from ages ago which summed up the changes too.
I summed up his points at the start, though
If anyone has them handy, linking would be fab :)
Changes sound amazingly ****ing stupid though, especially on top of the already stupid nerfs to flash and CV.
It seems like Riot just can't stop meddling with elements of the game that are perfectly fine as they are and massively ingrained into the metagame and players minds.
Also getting tired of their ******** line about making the game more aggressive, given that all of these changes seem to be working toward making the game more passive.
Taking the things that make jungking what it is so that kiddys can do it while facerolling?
No, thx.
I just won a game because i was better then the enemy jungler. Countert him , wared my jungel and got ahead. But will be the point if they do this changes?
All that will matter is how fast u can clear and how good u will gank.
Champs like Akali or other high burst ***inens good go jungling and still be as good as in a solo lane. This is stupied.
Jungling's my safe haven of a lane that isn't a lane, where I don't rely on anyone and can adapt to the situation more than what runes/items I take.
That's Riot for you -
"If it isn't broken, break it"
One of the most trufax posts I've seen.
Jungling's my safe haven of a lane that isn't a lane, where I don't rely on anyone and can adapt to the situation more than what runes/items I take.
That's Riot for you -
"If it isn't broken, break it"
I'm against all of those as well. lmao That's a little ridiculous.
Junglers are generally behind on exp at one point or another anyways, and unless you have a lot of succesful ganks you could be behind on gold as well.. by making smite no longer necessary for jungling, you might as well take it out of the game. "Allowing low level players to jungle" I suppose if any, this is the only one I would agree with, even though lots of lower level players can still jungle with champs like Yi and Shaco or Nunu...
I dun want my jungle nerfed.