Fair enough. I still stand by my point of "Full Build examples" these are extremely important, i see the guide looks much much better now which is wonderful. Then again the items are very important, and there should be a certain build or item to build against certain match ups. For example, Buy antiheal against Aatrox even if you are much ahead, since you could still lose thanks to that. Buying that anti cc item for mordekaiser R. If you do make those full builds, then by all means you deserve a vote, a pleasant comment, and all the good stuff. You will have made a 10/10 Guide. (in my eyes at least.)

chillax homies dunno where this drama is comin from but i agree with most of what vapora said

ur guide is quite overloaded with info. a lot of guide making is in presentation of information, not just in an aesthetic way, but in terms of conciseness in information - selecting what information is useful to the user.

theres really no need to compare guides tbh. it's like comparing grades at school.

most important thing in league (and life) is self-improvement ;)

What, the comment? I linked it to him.



Considering all the work he put into improving his guide in all aspects - including coding -, yes I'm sure he would have still made it look great and won the guide contest without Foxy's help.

And even if he hadn't won, you still wouldn't have won either, one of these other two guides would have, and even though he won it doesn't give much if any advantage in getting votes and views so I don't see why you put so much focus onto it.



Why do you care so much about reviews if you think your guide is "the best right now"? Most reviews I've seen, for both my own guides and other people's, are almost useless. When you know your **** about your mains as well as I do (and I assume it's the same for you and most other Diamond+ guide writers), there's very little reviews can do to help except nitpicking. I read through some of the reviews Havoc got just to make sure, and yeah some things may have been mildly helpful, but none of it was anything that would have decided him as the winner of the competition or not. He asked myself to review his guide a while ago and I didn't bother because I don't expect to see much/anything that I can look and say "that's wrong". Very few of the changes he'll have made from reviews are likely to have made his guide stand out for the competition even more than it already would have.

In your own guide people like Sir Wellington can nitpick things like " Feast should be Feast ", "improve your grammar", but how many of those things are actually going to noticeably increase the quality of your guide? How much are the flaws he's pointing out actually hindering your readers' learning? No offense to him of course, but I just think you're greatly over-rating the usefulness of reviews if you're complaining about not getting any when you already think your guide is amazing. What more can your average guide writer with little to no knowledge of Riven add that you can't?



We have a guide for it on MOBAFire, so you probably haven't tried searching far. A good starting point would be to just ask.



He was not, he's pointing out what a huge amount of the length of your guide (maybe 35-40%?) is comprised of just "[Insert silly nickname here] -> [Insert silly picture here]". If you had that in spoilers like so many other things in your guide it wouldn't have nearly as much length, which is what you seem to think is what makes your guide better than Havoc's. Your actual information in each matchup (of which there is a huge amount of non-meta picks that the reader is extremely unlikely to run into so not very relevant, but still hugely increases the length of the chapter), at least of the ones I checked, is usually smaller smaller than the space taken up by the silly title and silly picture that you chose not to include in the spoiler.






No it's not. So long as your guide isn't awful to look at, the aesthetics are fine, the rest is all content.



Well reading through your guide, a huge part of that length is taken up by not too important things like justification for runes, justification for masteries, justification for summoner spells, etc. I got this far before I finally reached something that actually actually teaches me how to play Riven. And what is it? A bunch of videos that aren't even made by you. It's good to have these resources grouped up into one place, but that's still just someone else's content, you can't be credited for the information Box Box gives just because you linked it in your guide.

And then we have abilities, which take up a lot of space and mostly just gives a more in-depth explanation of the in-game tooltip. Again, kudos for doing that, but it's still nothing special despite how long it is. This kind of thing is information that readers may as well skip since you don't gain much from reading it.

Ahh, now this **** right here is the kind of information that actually teaches the champion, rather than being just an extended cheat sheet and a collection of videos any random person that knows the name "Box Box" can search.

So how far into the guide are we at this point (spoilers all open)?



Just 25% through the length of the guide, and so far I've read a lot of information but little to none of it is actually you, Seth346, teaching me how to play Riven.

And that chapter is like, 2 1920x1080 monitor screens long, and then we're back at the infamous matchups chapter. Honestly I don't believe in matchups chapters, I think there's almost no point in them and the only reason I could possibly want to include them in my own guides (and I don't) is to hugely inflate the length of it as all matchup chapters do, to make it look more impressive. The way matchups are played are reactionary based on your knowledge of your champion, your knowledge of the enemy champion, how good your mechanics are, how much your opponent does or doesn't mess up, and most of all, common sense. These aren't things you can transfer over a short paragraph explaining how to play out the matchup.

For example, here's the information in your matchups chapter that actually gives "useful" information on how to beat Malphite:



So we have:

- "The best things you can do are e to cs and trade while he's ccd". If you E to cs, isn't he just going to hit you with Q as you walk away?

- "You have to e all his qs". So I have to E to CS (I assume that means dashing to every minion that I want to last-hit so the shield protects me from immediate retaliation), and I also have to E his Q's. That's an unrealistic amount of E spam that gives me little to no idea of how to play the matchup other than "shield his damage". Well gee, "shield his damage", that just about covers every single matchup ever, how much is this going to help me, really?

- "I would honestly get 3 points in Valor". That's honestly like the one useful thing you could say about this matchup, but I find myself questioning whether it's even necessary, and especially if the Malphite is playing like **** the correct thing to do would be to max Q as normal and stomp his ***, but anyone reading this is going to assume the only correct way for them to play vs Malphite is to take 3 points in E and play like a ***** even if the Malphite has awful mechanics and goes for awful trades. If you're covering how you should play the matchup when he plays perfectly, why not also cover the matchup when he plays mediocrely, or poorly? In fact, why not also cover how it's played when you have awful mechanics and awful timing for trades? There's so many different factors to take into account to know how to play a matchup out, and at the end of the day the only thing that's going to help you understand how to play it out is your own experience and knowledge, not a short paragraph worth of information on a guide.

- "Rush Black Cleaver". Shouldn't this be covered by "rush Black Cleaver vs armor stackers" in your items section? There's no real point in repeating it here, your reader is going to know this is what he's meant to do vs an armor stacker like Malphite.

- "Back out of lane if you go below 450 hp when he has ult (get slam daddied if you don't)". Awfully specific amount. Isn't this again just common sense? It's a rewording of "Don't die to him". And is that really the only thing you can do? What if he's low? What if you can flash out of the ult and burst him down when it misses? You can of course outplay him, but is a matchups chapter on MOBAFire going to tell you how to do that?

- "Don't engage if he gets an e on you (you will miss ALLLL the autos)". That's fairly intuitive. Likewise if I'm playing Lucian vs Teemo I won't wait until he shoots Blinding Dart at me before dashing forwards and picking a fight with him. Also I don't think my Lucian guide needs to cover "don't walk into Skarner's melee range", since to be good at League you just need to be smart enough to figure that out on your own. And I'm pretty sure not getting caught by a Skarner late-game as the ADC is more important to "know" than not engaging onto a Malphite in laning phase while slowed by his E as Riven, yet you won't see any Lucian guides being that specific because it's pretty common sense. I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't explain that in a matchup section about Malphite, it's just the need for a matchup section in general that I'm questioning here. I don't recall ever reading anything in my life that's helped me play a matchup better.

- "He has a deceptively high amount of burst and gank assist in his kit... Respect it". You can copy and paste this sentence onto any other champion guide's matchup chapter ever. Again this doesn't make me know how to play the Riven vs Malphite matchup. And how much is "deceptively high amount of burst and gank assist" exactly? How the hell am I meant to understand what that means except by experiencing it first-hand, which removes the need for a sentence like this in the first place?

- "Don't trade with his e, try not to even get hit by an e, it will deal a large amount of damage because he will most likely be maxing it". AKA don't get out-traded. Ok.


Here's a screenshot of the same Malphite section, but crossing out all the tips that I as a non- Riven player could have also explained equally well:



I just honestly think these stupid chapters are over-rated, incredibly useless and a huge waste of space, regardless of how popular and requested they may be. I'll explain how to play a matchup if asked in the comments, but I don't see how anything I explained is meant to be anything other than a prediction of how things will go rather than what they actually have to do in the matchup every single time they're in it. And am I meant to be explaining how to win complicated matchups? Or just how best to lose them? Am I to pretend both players play unrealistically perfectly? Should I be disregarding the possibility of being able to win losing matchups? If in-game I disregard my own advice because my enemy is playing badly and take a dump on a bad matchup, is my advice therefore useless since it's obviously not always applicable even though the reader is going to always apply it?

When people ask for advice on playing a bad matchup because they lost it in-game, it's exactly because of that, it's a bad matchup. You can't explain to them how to win it, they are meant to lose it. If they don't that's because they're playing really well (and "really well" can't be defined in a matchup section), and if they do then that's just what's to be expected, it's not like you're going to give them the missing key to the puzzle and now they're going to win the matchup every time.

Sooooo, with all this in mind about how little I rate matchup chapters as quality, let's take a look at how much more of your guide is filled with things that don't really teach me how to play Riven.

Again with the side by side comparison, this time with all the spoilers open (including every one outside of the chapter) so it includes all the low quality (IMO) information as well as the silly names and pictures:



That right there is like ~40% of your entire guide. 40% of the length of your guide is just a chapter useless to anyone with common sense and basic knowledge of the champions they could face in top lane (which either way they will learn after playing a single game against them), and who has read everything else in your guide if your guide does a good job of explaining the essentials.

So add up the 40% of the matchups chapter to the 25% of the guide that was your "extensive cheat sheet", and the end result is that ~65% of your guide (so far) doesn't teach me how to play Riven.

You say your guide is "very long, very informative and in great detail". Well yes there is a lot of information, but a lot of it so far is low quality information that isn't very useful for me to read. If I'd read this entire guide from start to finish, the 65% that I highlighted would have felt like a waste of time to read.



You're not wrong, but you're also downplaying it massively, because the conciseness of Havoc's guide is a very huge advantage over yours. His guide's amount of information taken per minute spent reading > Your guide's amount of information taken per minute spent reading. This is going to sting when put into the perspective of the following statement, and you may disagree, but it's completely relevant: Quality > Quantity. Your guide isn't wrong, it's just that the quality of the information presented isn't as good as Havoc's, it spends a lot of time dodging around the actual point of a guide, teaching Riven.

Also he could have been awarded points for his information being more correct than yours, since your guide says that Ignite > TP at high Elo while TP > Ignite at low Elo, which is completely the reverse of the truth, and you also include Exhaust as an option, and I don't know of any Riven that would do that in any matchup.

You weren't cheated out of a win in the guide contest, nor are you being continuously cheated out of the #1 spot. You're just too egotistical to accept that the guide you put so much work into could be worse than the guide someone else put so much work into.



"Only two hours? YES! I'VE CUT IT DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!"

So you recognize that some/a lot of that was removing unnecessary information rather than adding essential information. Time spent correcting your mistakes doesn't make your guide better than someone who spent less time correcting his mistakes because he made less of them to begin with.

"LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL I FEEL YOU!!!!!!! ITS SO HARD KEEPING GIANT SECTIONS LIKE THAT UPDATED. It's not just something you do in the hour you have before work or some ****. Nah, THAT **** TAKES ALLLLLL DAY."

The number of times that you've updated your enormous guide also doesn't necessarily make it better than the guide of someone who's made less updates (provided it's currently up to date) to less information.

The fact that you estimate the total time put into this guide being ~500 hours is admirable and you can feel proud about that, but don't mistake that to mean that the quality of your guide = 500 hours worth of information. That's not how it works, time spent on a guide doesn't add up and make it better. And your guide, while long, isn't 500 hours of non-stop writing (and coding and finding images etc), so you should realize that a lot of those 500 hours were modifying existing information in an attempt to optimize it, whereas others maybe "got it right" on one of their first goes and just don't see why they would need to spend 500 hours on their own guide. Like I said, kudos to you for being that dedicated, but your guide is not the best because you've spent 500 hours on it. That's not 500 hours worth of high quality information.



Do change logs help people learn Riven? Then why are you bragging about the length of your change log?



That's unrelated to Havoc, even if he didn't win you still weren't even considered, so there's no point in being bitter towards him about it.



That doesn't take away from the fact that a lot of your guide's visible length (which you keep using as a selling point) is from that matchup section, even with all the spoilers closed.



Done.



No he didn't, he gave him a template that had to be simple enough that Havoc could write whatever he wanted in it, then everything else was Havoc's own work using the same resources he had available to him as you do. He could remove Foxy's template and find something else that works if he wanted to and it would still look great, because he puts effort into it.



Then don't use "your guide overtook mine because you lucked out and won the contest" as an excuse. Also I don't think Havoc took the contest anywhere near as personally as you did.



You realize that the judges picked Havoc's guide because of how detailed it is and the quality of the information, and didn't even mention the graphics? That's how little of an influence it was. You're only conceding that his graphics are better than yours because you're less proud about your visuals than you are about your content, you're too proud to admit that someone else has better content than you.



He wasn't attacking your guide, he was defending himself from your claims that he won the competition over you only because he lucked out with the judges caring more about his graphics (which you claimed had nothing to do with him and was 100% coded by someone else) than your content, and that he only overtook your guide because he yet again lucked out and got featured on the front page, which apparently generated enough votes that your guide will never be able to recover from it. Because the exposure he got from being temporarily featured was more than the exposure you got from being the highest rated Riven guide, right? You were the one at the disadvantage, right?

You're publicly making excuses for yourself at Havoc's expense, downplaying all the work that Havoc's put into his guide, saying it's indisputably worse than yours and claiming he undeservedly won the guide contest, got undeservedly featured on front page because of it, and has undeservedly held the top rated Riven guide ever since because of that. I don't blame him for commenting to defend himself, if he didn't I would have, just as I am now since he doesn't care enough to waste more time on a jealous rival talking **** about him for no reason.



Mate he and I have both seen you chatting **** about him on your stream, don't pretend this is the point where he's gone too far and you can't be friends with him anymore lol. You don't have the moral high ground here.



The overwhelming majority of those views are from having the #1 spot, not from being featured months ago. He got featured because the admin that does that thought he had the better guide (as did the contest judges), he got #1 because the voters thought he had the better guide. Him being featured is not why you lost the #1 spot, since at the time you were still getting more exposure than his guide through sheer virtue of being the first guide on the list that comes up when you search "riven guide/riven mobafire". The difference is that even with less exposure, more people were compelled to create an account and upvote him than people did with you, because his guide more frequently struck viewers as good and worth their gratitude than yours did.

And you know, now he does have the advantage, he has the #1 spot so he gets more exposure so you have a tougher time gathering upvotes to overtake him. You are right about that. But the fact that he had to overtake you to get there in the first place just shows that you're just making excuses for yourself by saying your guide has always been better and he never deserved to overtake you. You have to be really egotistical to think that.