Kog'Maw Build Guide : Diamond AP Kog'maw - Acid Reign [25.04]

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Just another small comment; it feels weird that Muramana is placed in the first slot in the 'cheat sheet' build while the text post itself says to buy Liandry's first.

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That's reasonable. The current rationale is that this is what the final build looks like (as tear is the first item, and thus Muramana is in the first slot). The Core meanwhile is the actual build order.

But that may be unnecessarily confusing. I'll get some more input and then modify accordingly; thanks for the note!

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Yeah, I personally thought it was a similar vibe to champions that end up buying Archangel's first to stack it faster as well as have an earlier powerspike rather than delaying their first item by Tear's investment cost, but then I thought 'there's no way Kog'Maw actually wants that though does he' and had to check the written order.

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Hello! Noticed your guide was generally negative about Banshee's and Hourglass, which I get behind, but what about Frozen Heart? Compared to Banshee's and Hourglass it provides mana which seems like a more significant stat for this type of build, especially with Muramana's AD conversion and reliance on Kog's ultimate.

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Hey! Frozen Heart is definitely better than the other options for the reasons you've noted, but my main hesitation with it is that it makes an already-slow build even slower. I've already occasionally considered removing Rylais (or at least putting it one spot later in the build) this season because the build isn't ramping up to relevancy fast enough. Frozen Heart then, like other really nice defensive options such as Deadmans, all fall into the issue of making the build too slow.

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That's fair. I was mainly imagining buying Frozen Heart after 3 items since that seems to be the point where your 'core' is done and you can look at alternative choices, but if the loss of damage is too significant even at that point to make up for survivability I get it.

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Interesting S14 build.

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New season, new items to take into consideration! What with Mythics being removed and Liandry's losing its mana, perhaps Malignance might find some significance? Luden's Companion seems interesting as well.

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Yes it shall be updated! Actually I just spent last night going over what Kog'maw's new build order likely looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbwM-ExFKsU&t=8221s

So my initial thoughts are that Malignance is worth rushing as a first item. Also after my test game with AP Kog (end of the video), Rylais will likely return to the order. It's just so hard to land multiple hits on a row if you don't have it!

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I really like this guide, but I have a question: Now that shadowflame has been released, should it not become part of the core build? It gives magic penetration in the form of the passive, it builds off of an item with an on-hit effect so building it as your second item could be good, and it gives health. Seems to me like it fits in this style of build quite well, but when should it be built (if at all)? Would be cool if you updated your guide to include shadowflame! I'd also like to know your opinion on First strike. Spellbook is great and has saved me on many occassions, but I also want to know your opinion on First strike since it could theoretically get you your items sooner.

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Season 12 itemization is upon us. Can't wait to see where Shadowflame and maybe the updated Horizon Focus may fit into the build.

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REALLY LOVE THIS GUIDE. i'M ENJOYING AP KOG SO MUCH TAHNK YOU MAN.

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Is ap kog still good? i think new presence of mind will be good on him

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Still fantastic, it spikes a bit earlier this season too at the cost of some raw mana compared to last season. I detail in the guide why I don't like Presence of Mind on AP Kog, namely that the overall mana regen it offers is generally less than Manaflow Band, and Manaflow already doesn't give enough mana for me to want.

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No reason you can't do both. Kog is mana hungry enough to make it a reasonable choice, especially with the across-the-board nerfing of mana on items. Admittedly a precision + sorcery rune distribution is completely at odds with what's stated in the guide, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. One option I don't see mentioned is phase rush, which could be great for kog since he has to stay at an appropriate distance, and it would generally help with his ability to kite and harass safely both in and out of lane. Then you take manaflow band, take transcendence to reduce the cd on your e, (it partially refunds your cds for a kill or assist after level 11 now, which is great when you consider how much power and utility his e provides) and scorch because it's the least terrible rune in that row. (who the hell takes waterwalking XD ) Then in the precision tree you take presence of mind for mana, and coup de grace because it synergizes with your ult by amplifying execution damage. The best part is that you're not giving up any damage by doing this because none of the runes listed by the guide do much for damage. (not a criticism, just pointing this out. As a side note, the clarity spell doesn't exist anymore outside aram but is still listed on the unsealed spellbook spoiler)

Or you could just swap out the resolve tree for the precision tree because adding a negligible amount of armor and HP doesn't actually help kog with being long range artillery, or even a mid-range mage. May as well have more mana and an execution damage amp instead.

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Precision + Sorcery isn't a bad choice, but it's not also not my favored choice.

1. I tested Phase Rush quite a lot prior, and found it underwhelming. I couldn't get it to activate when I needed it to (except like once or twice in the laning phase), and later on in the match when it was activating, it usually made no difference in the overall outcome of a fight. It wasn't useless, but generally wasn't making a meaningful impact.

2. Kog is only mana hungry if you exceed the barrage limit regularly. Otherwise, the amount of mana with biscuits and Manamune (which is now in the build order) is enough as long as the reserve bullets aren't dipped into regularly. Getting more mana options will only allow like, 1-3 extra shots later in the match because of the sheer amount of mana it takes to dip into the reserve.

3. Clarity is an option that can be picked from Unsealed Spellbook

4. I find the opposite to be true, that the amount of mana and damage added is largely negligible enough that I prefer having 15% more effective HP instead.

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I find that the new presence of mind is a must have for me when I am in teamfights because it gives me 1 or 2 extra bullets to clean up the fight every takedown. I also use it to sustain myself in the early lane by using the w for extra range sustained poke to refill mana.

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What do you think about RoA? I do it sometimes, vs burst comps

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Not much a fan of it. It slows down an already-slow build and raw AP isn't even a great stat for AP Kog. Would rather continue building up to the more magic-pen oriented choices instead.

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Kog'maw is disgusting, although he really is an interesting champion
I didn't read your guide thoroughly because I am not planning to play this champion whatsoever, but again, I know your other guides as I have commented, so I know that this will be useful for my friends and probably will share it with them :>

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Yo, AP Kogmaw is getting a buff next patch! (10.13)

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Pretty unexpected, but kind of nice! It doesn't change the build order but it does make AP Kog's late game even more powerful which is scary to think about.

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I think you should update your guide a little bit because he scales harder with AP now, 70% on his Q, and 35% on his R base damage boosted to 70% if the enemy is below 40%. I think it's possible to build pure AP and kill the backline with just 4 Rs.

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Fortunately after I redid the math, it seems that amplifying the base damage with Liandries and magic pen is still better overall. This is mostly because the base damage still vastly overshadows the AP scaling.

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Really??!! By the way, how hard does AP Kog'Maw scale? his AD build falls off HARD into the late game.

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He's like a not as ridiculous Kassadin

If your team gets good CC on 3-4 people you can just artillery the **** out of them and melt entire teams. From my experience Kog spikes HARD with Liandrys and hard again at level 16

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Then on a scale from 1 to 10, if Kassadin is 10 then how is Kog'Maw? Can he dual late-game monsters like Vladimir or Ryze?

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Kogmaw isn't a champ that's meant for 1v1 dueling so I'm not sure it's fair to rate him as such even though he's really strong late game. Also his on hit build doesn't fall off due to his W imo. He's a hypercarry if you bring him bot due to the opponents being unable to proerly build against him and the mechanics of his W.

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Hi! I don't know if this is the right place to do this but since our fellow Rcool64 mentioned jungle Lissandra in the previous post, I think it's ok. After all we're here to exchange our ideas about the game :)

I've recently tried to build Hextech Gunblade and Lich Bane on Veigar and I was quite impressed by the result. I got this idea after trying this same build path on Leblanc. I was not sure if that would work the first time but I was astonished by the amount of sheer burst this item combination provides. And that's where Veigar comes in :
*talking to myself
"-Wait what is Veigar exactly supposed to do?
-I don't know, zoning and oneshoting people...
-What if we tried building items that would enhance his oneshoting power even more?
-Looks like we got something here Billy..."
As we know, thanks to his passive and his Q, Veigar tends to stack a lot of AP. Hextech Gunblade and Lich Bane both have AP scalings, which let you make great use of this AP.
Also, this item combination is meant to make you less reliant on your E into W combo, since Hextech Gunblade>Q spell>auto-attack with Lich Bane proc>ultimate reliably deals with most squishies.
Of course, this build also has defects compared to a classic Veigar build : you have less CDR which means your E has a fairly high cooldown, you have to walk in auto-attack range which may prove very dangerous at times and spending 1500 gold in early game to buy a Bilgewater Cutlass is quite awkward.
Still, I would like to know what are your thoughts on it, at least theoretically speaking since you may not want to spend your time trying what may be an altogether lame build^^
Sorry for the long post! Peace ;)

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It's entirely reasonable to save the gunblade for 2nd item, after say morellos(cause mana), thus reducing the awkwardness of the cutlass. (the alternative is ROA to reduce the risk of walking into gunblade range) Then you build gunblade 2nd, and lich bane 3rd. Since everyone makes a thing out of not buying lich bane till you have enough ap, well by this point you have several hundred so it seems like a fairly reasonable build overall. Throw in a ludens for even more scaling on your burst.

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Ah I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to you! I got busy with graduation and other end-of-school related things.

It's always been an interest of mine to see if there are ways to feasibly make burst mages have more durability. Ahri is one of those champs that's jumped on that train by being able to feasibly build Hextech Gunblade, despite lacking AD scalings, so it's certainly possible.

I think the most difficult part is that for Veigar to have reliable DPS, they want to have enough CDR to consistently spam out their Baleful Strikeduring the teamfight. Yet, a lot of CDR itemization tends to lack in tankiness, which means that being durable but also having CDR tends to be mutually exclusive.

If this kind of build was being done, I would wonder if there would be something possible like I do with my Vel'koz build: 30% scaling CDR in runes (which is effectively 20% CDR by Level 12) in order to minimize the number of items that have to be invested into CDR. With that, just a Morello could feasibly hit 45% in a reasonable span of time, while still allowing for mid-game teching into Gunblade.

I haven't quite run the math or the difference in burst that would result from it though, so but if I were to go down that kind of Veigar path, this would probably be my first attempt.

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Thank you for your answer! I hope that you did well with your exams! :)

I noticed indeed that the lack of CDR was very crippling in late game teamfights. I would say that this build is more focused on snowballing mid game rather than late game teamfighting. I'm definitely looking forward to trying scaling CDR runes as you mentioned. Not only should it increased Veigar lategame teamfighting but also more CDR early means more Q and thus more stacks. However I find it risky foregoing magic resist glyphs against midlane AP matchups. I wonder if this would work with only scaling CDR quints... No problem against AD matchups though. I will tell you if it worked out!

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Swell looking forward to the response! I bet the Discord would also love to hear the results so feel free to share there as well!