How is experience divided when you double jungle? Seems to me that the double junglers will fall behind in levels fast if they can't get the invade clear and early gank right.
I still think it's an interesting idea though. I'd like to try it with
Shen + Twisted Fate once. Should be fun with the global pressure and CC.
I still think it's an interesting idea though. I'd like to try it with
Shen + Twisted Fate once. Should be fun with the global pressure and CC.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
The main flaw with double jungling is that the team can easily "fend off" against the invading jungler. In a coordinated setting if teams spread out to guard entrances and sacrifice a bit of lane pressure to ensure that no camps are stolen there really isn't that much benefit you gain as the second jungler, especially since you're splitting resources with your jungler. This isn't to mention that if you know the enemy team is trying for a double jungle before draft you can draft a heavy shove bot lane to push for fast first tower (cait janna or something).
It's always going to be cheese because you're starting the game at a deficit by having guaranteed no lane priority in bot while also lowering resource gain of your junglers by default, not to mention there's no guarantee you'll be able to secure the counter jungle.
It's always going to be cheese because you're starting the game at a deficit by having guaranteed no lane priority in bot while also lowering resource gain of your junglers by default, not to mention there's no guarantee you'll be able to secure the counter jungle.
Dzopilant wrote:
Hello,
Seriously its some years i am thinking this "double jun" concept could become a "new meta" option so i agree with your thoughts. In fact i often say "solo bot np" if two people argue about "first jun" and try to convince them to do it so i experienced some games this way.
I could think of Teemo being a nasty 2d jungler.
Otherwise about the strategy downside it generally cost the first tower bonus and needs one assassin able to get the oponent ADC mid / late game (because he will farm pretty freely if ganks don't work at start)
Seriously its some years i am thinking this "double jun" concept could become a "new meta" option so i agree with your thoughts. In fact i often say "solo bot np" if two people argue about "first jun" and try to convince them to do it so i experienced some games this way.
I could think of Teemo being a nasty 2d jungler.
Otherwise about the strategy downside it generally cost the first tower bonus and needs one assassin able to get the oponent ADC mid / late game (because he will farm pretty freely if ganks don't work at start)
Thats a good idea! I will try solo bot next time 2 people argue about getting the jungle position.
Well i tested some double junglers and from my experience i can say that you should take normal junglers as double junglers. So they need good and fast waveclear for the camps. Not really sure if teemo can provide this :D.
I would also take assassins as jungler like Khazix, Lee Sin and Nocturne. They got pretty decent waveclear. Lee and Kha ganks are quite strong pre lvl 6 but after that they are even stronger. If you gank and can at least force the enemy to backport it will be worth. Just take "demolish" mastery and you will deal good dmg to the tower. If you are ganking correctly 3v1 then this should be easy.
Latest Legend wrote:
How is experience divided when you double jungle? Seems to me that the double junglers will fall behind in levels fast if they can't get the invade clear and early gank right.
I still think it's an interesting idea though. I'd like to try it with Shen + Twisted Fate once. Should be fun with the global pressure and CC.
I still think it's an interesting idea though. I'd like to try it with
Shen + Twisted Fate once. Should be fun with the global pressure and CC.I would get our own jungle camps and the enemy topside jungle camps. Invade the enemy jungler as 2 junglers. He wont be able to contest his camp alone. The at least 2 laners would have to follow but our laners could follow too which would be a 4v3 for us, otherwise i would try to escape and let our laners push (#demolishftw).
It could also be that we invade and he will not contest the camps and instead gank a lane. We could do scuttle crab for top lane, mid could ward botside bush and position topside. Problem would be a 1v3 gank on botlane. Those invades have to happen early, because they wont be able to towerdive at early levels.
Basically its kind of an exp trade. Jungler 1 will get the camp jungler 2 will zone the enemy jungler. After that you can gank midlane. If the gank fails invade his botside jungle but only the buff and the camp which is close to midlane (wolves and raptors). If the enemy midlaner roams, your midlaner can roam too and the enemy will be in a very bad position, because he can be engaged from 2 sides.
Btw i was also thinking about such global ult champs, but not only the junglers but also the laners. Taliyah midlane can quickly clear the wave and ult to toplane which will results in a 4v3 (worst case).
Embracing wrote:
The main flaw with double jungling is that the team can easily "fend off" against the invading jungler. In a coordinated setting if teams spread out to guard entrances and sacrifice a bit of lane pressure to ensure that no camps are stolen there really isn't that much benefit you gain as the second jungler, especially since you're splitting resources with your jungler. This isn't to mention that if you know the enemy team is trying for a double jungle before draft you can draft a heavy shove bot lane to push for fast first tower (cait janna or something).
It's always going to be cheese because you're starting the game at a deficit by having guaranteed no lane priority in bot while also lowering resource gain of your junglers by default, not to mention there's no guarantee you'll be able to secure the counter jungle.
It's always going to be cheese because you're starting the game at a deficit by having guaranteed no lane priority in bot while also lowering resource gain of your junglers by default, not to mention there's no guarantee you'll be able to secure the counter jungle.
If the entrances are guarded I would just do our blue and red buff then gank midlane. If it fails then invade topside jungle or gank toplane.
(Splitting resources is mentioned above).
On bot lane we wont be palying a classic adc, the champion needed is something with waveclear to prevent pushing and cc to prevent ganks/towerdives. best examples i can think of were Galio and Morgana (maybe Gangplank) I am currently testing and thinking about others, but there are just a few champions who would fit that role I guess.
Basically it is a trade of lane priorities. Bot lane pressure is traded against top,mid and jungle pressure.
The resources/camps are traded against gank advantage like dmg and availability.
Counter jungling at lvl 1 is only the only option you have :D
"Me mad? haha ... quite likely" - Thresh
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The obvious disadvantage of this tactic is that we will have very high pressure on bot lane.
On the other hand we got huge advantages on the other lanes: Ganking top or mid will result in a 3v1 which should be a safe kill if one of your jungler has got a stun (e.g. Jax). Invading the enemy jungle with 2 junglers and kill or at least zone him away from his jungle will put him behind.
So in order to use those advantages u need to have a safe bot lane. Someone with poke and escape (e.g. Ezreal). If bot lane plays safely we can go on with the strategy:
Example laning phase:
Invade the red team jungler (e.g. Gragas) to get information on where he starts. E.g. he starts blue. Blue team Jungler 1 (e.g. Jax) clears enemy red buff. Blue team Jungler 2 (e.g.) Lee Sin clears ally red buff.
While Jax starts doing enemy crugs after warding the bush next to raptors, Lee Sin walks from our jungle to Jax.
Now Gragas will have 4 possibilities.
1. After clearing blue, gank bot lane.
2. Stay on blue side and clear all 3 camps.
3. Predict that they invaded his red buff and want to catch him there, so he goes to the enemy red buff.
4. Doesn't know they could invade them and go to his red buff.
How will the 2 junglers react?
1. Clear Gragas' red side jungle completely (leaving small raptors/crugs behind so that they won't respawn). Ping bot that Gragas is bot side. Then gank top. The best thing Gragas can do in this situation is to gank bot, but Ezreal (botlaner on double jungle side) knows that (warded during first invade) and can position him self safely.
2. Again, Gragas' red side jungle will be cleared completely. Ping bot. Gank top. Gragas will miss the opportunity to at least burn Ezreals flash, because Ezreal will hit lvl 2 and will have his blink E to escape. Later Gragas only option to farm is to invade where the 2 junglers will wait for him.
3. Still Gragas' red side jungle will be cleared completely. Ping bot. Gank top. When Gragas finishes one camp, the 2 junglers finished his whole top side jungle and started their way to gank top lane.
4. He will notice that his red buff has been stolen, so he will do another camp. E.g. raptors: after he drops low and used his Bodyslam E the 2 junglers engage on him. Jax jumps on Gragas and stuns him. Lee Sin following with Safe Guard W and dmg with auto attacks (AA). Gragas killed or at least flashed. If he flashes Lee Sin will follow up with a Sonic Wave Q into Resonating Strike Q. Then Gank top or mid.
In every 4 scenario it is a win/win situation if Ezreal (bot lane) plays safely. After that Gragas is zoned away from his own jungle and kept far behind. His will not be as powerful as Lee Sin/Jax ganks because they will hit lvl 6 earlier and use their ultimates. Next game will be on bot lane because they will automatically push their lane.
Botlane:
red team adc (e.g. Vayne) and red team support (e.g. Janna) got 2 options.1. Farm safely and hide behind minions to prevent poke -> Ezreal gets free and more exp -> gank with 3 man lvl advantage.
2. Zone Ezreal away from the exp by trading with him -> Vayne will get minion aggro -> less minion dmg on red team minions -> red team pushes slowly = gank
Now that Gragas is behind, top or mid will be camped to get kills and let them snowball.
I know the biggest weakness of this strategy will be the 2v1 botlane but this is also part of it. You have to know how to deal with it. E.g. If the enemy team picks lane bullies like Draven Thresh, the bot laner has to stay absolutely safe under tower. In this case I would pick Alistar. if Draven want to tower dive him he will get exhausted, knocked up and knocked away from Thresh lantern = kill. In general: Against a Draven Thresh bot lane I would invade the enemy bot side jungle, if the enemy jungler is there, kill him, if not: gank bot lane.
Later,
you focus on killing the enemy jungler. After that you can do herald or drake with your 2 junglers. If the enemy adc and support move to drake, the adc will lose farm and the 2 junglers can do a 3v2 with their supporter.In late game the double jungle team will have 2 smites to secure objectives with at least 1000hp true dmg. Of course you can say that this team will have one summoner spell less for fighting purposes but at this point, the double jungle team will have more objectives and at least a (more or less) fed top, mid or jungler. Therefore this team will have more stats and gold.
All in all the goal is to get one of those lanes fed and because there are 3 possible lanes the 2 junglers can choose to camp one lane and/or switch another one.
For double jungle I got a lot of strattegies to execute this unconventional team comp. I think there are many ways to counterplay the enemy with 2 junglers. In the future I will definitely try it with the new runes, which will make things even more interesting. (Zombie ward for more vision, Summoner specialist to change smite into e.g. teleport, ....).
But for now I want to discuss which champions I can pick for double jungle (my premate and I tried Shace Twitch jungle) and how the enemy can outplay/outsmart this strategy.
In general: Where do you guys see the main problems in this strategy? How would you draft and play against this team comp?