The problem you're experiencing is because Karthus gets completely countered in lane by a good Annie/Brand/Orianna or anyone else with long range burst damage because he's squishy as hell and all of his damage is sustained. Plus his E is extremely short range, so it's more or less unusable unless they tower dive you or you get a gank.
I play Karthus from time to time and I generally have problems with champs like Brand and Lux (haven't laned vs Orianna on him, but I imagine it'd be pretty horrible). Annie is obviously a problem because she can one-shot you, but at least she has a shorter range than Karthus' Q (unless she flashes forward, then I guess you're screwed).
I play Karthus from time to time and I generally have problems with champs like Brand and Lux (haven't laned vs Orianna on him, but I imagine it'd be pretty horrible). Annie is obviously a problem because she can one-shot you, but at least she has a shorter range than Karthus' Q (unless she flashes forward, then I guess you're screwed).
JEFFY40HANDS wrote:
@Dante: By better you mean easier to play right? Annie/Brand are like two jons looking for a cheap hooker. They stroll in blow their load and either walk out immideately or stick around for another "poke". Karthus walks in bangs for an hour and then decides if he wants to blow. Or at least how I play him. He brings sustained DPS in a teamfight, if he dies he dies, but the team should fight on top of him. Annie/Brand can carry hard in almost any situation. Karthus needs to be able to fight from the outskirts with Defile and Lay Waste poking people, then bring the pain with his ulti....In truth there are multiple ways to play Karthus effectively, just depends on your playstyle and mind set.
By better I mean they have alot more to offer. Brand and Annie are reasonably easy to play yet a pro level annie or brand will pwn 10x harder. Karthus is arguably squishier than Annie and brand (and alot of mages tbh), look what he has to offer and look what annie/brand has to offer. Karthus is a very strong teamfighter but so is annie/brand.
Annie can lock down a single target and nuke the **** out of anyone close to her target. Karthus however cannot nuke the living **** out of one person so incredibly fast it immediately becomes a 5v4, Brand can control the whole teamfight if played properly due to his massive AOE damage. But what makes Annie and Brand superior to Karthus is the CC they offer. Karthus's form of CC is a wall slow whilst Annie and Brand have stuns, Stun > slow. Sure its not an AOE stun but it will lock down a single target and make them unable to react or deal damage and they can nuke them so hard that they die by the time the stun ends, that's what makes them so powerful.
Karthus require more careful positioning and timing, his requiem and passive is what makes him even viable in teamfights. To be honest he's more of a clean up champion, careful positioning and focus can shut him down, and sure you can say: "well if you focus brand or annie then lalal its the same thing". But it is not, annie has a shield, and both annie and brand are just naturally tankier than karthus is.
Karthus is just meh now. So many better mages out there.
Dante, I'm just going to come right out and say you're wrong.
Karthus wall is one of the best CCs in the game. Placed well, it's a strong slow effect on potentially the entire enemy team, not forgetting that it ALSO gives a debuff of -50 armour and MR for 8 seconds (assuming max rank). That's a big deal in a teamfight.
His ult and passive are not what make him viable in teamfights, that's what people who've never played Karthus say. His Q and his E are highly underrated and do a massive amount of damage in teamfights, particularly his E. Those combined with his passive are what make him strong in teamfights. An ult at the end is definetely helpful but it's not all that Karthus is.
He is squishy as **** though, you're right there.
EDIT: Was wrong, it's only 35 armour/MR reduction and lasts for 5 seconds. 80% slow though.
Karthus wall is one of the best CCs in the game. Placed well, it's a strong slow effect on potentially the entire enemy team, not forgetting that it ALSO gives a debuff of -50 armour and MR for 8 seconds (assuming max rank). That's a big deal in a teamfight.
His ult and passive are not what make him viable in teamfights, that's what people who've never played Karthus say. His Q and his E are highly underrated and do a massive amount of damage in teamfights, particularly his E. Those combined with his passive are what make him strong in teamfights. An ult at the end is definetely helpful but it's not all that Karthus is.
He is squishy as **** though, you're right there.
EDIT: Was wrong, it's only 35 armour/MR reduction and lasts for 5 seconds. 80% slow though.
Luther3000 wrote:
Dante, I'm just going to come right out and say you're wrong.
Karthus wall is one of the best CCs in the game. Placed well, it's a strong slow effect on potentially the entire enemy team, not forgetting that it ALSO gives a debuff of -50 armour and MR for 8 seconds. That's a big deal in a teamfight.
His ult and passive are not what make him viable in teamfights, that's what people who've never played Karthus say. His Q and his E are highly underrated and do a massive amount of damage in teamfights, particularly his E. Those combined with his passive are what make him strong in teamfights. An ult at the end is definetely helpful but it's not all that Karthus is.
He is squishy as **** though, you're right there.
I'll admit I never played Karthus, but that doesn't really make much of a difference. Countering him is as easy as focusing him and trying to get out of his AOE. His wall has a huge CD, and does not really shut down a champion, I forgot about the Debuff which I will admit is pretty friggin awesome so thats a +1. HOWEVER, I think stuns are still more valuable.
But you have a good argument Luther. It's just my personal opinion that Karthus is an average mage champion.
Annie is almost certainly better than Karthus though, especially in the hands of your average player, since she is much, much easier to play and do well on.
The counter to Karthus as you said is killing him quickly every fight and moving away. If you can't do that though, he's going to destroy your whole team.
Oh and I just looked and I was wrong about his wall, it's 35 armour/MR reduction for 5 seconds. It does get reapplied every time they go through the wall though, and the wall lasts 7 seconds. The slow is 80% also, which is massive (assuming max rank on it). Still pretty damn good.
The counter to Karthus as you said is killing him quickly every fight and moving away. If you can't do that though, he's going to destroy your whole team.
Oh and I just looked and I was wrong about his wall, it's 35 armour/MR reduction for 5 seconds. It does get reapplied every time they go through the wall though, and the wall lasts 7 seconds. The slow is 80% also, which is massive (assuming max rank on it). Still pretty damn good.
Did a game with Karthus only a few days ago against a Brand mid....I zoned him and avoided his pillars like a boss. Probably helped that after my catalyst (for sustain) I bought a Hextech Revolver into WoA, I was immoveable in lane from that point on.
@Dante: So what you're saying is "Yes Jeffy Annie and Brand are easier which makes them better."? Karthus is squishie, but he has amazing DPS. Which is why I said Annie and Brand are like 2 jons looking for a cheap hooker. They literally are there for their nuke combo. If they can't kill with their combo they didn't do their job. Which is why Karthus can be a bit better pick in a more skilled player's hands. He is a superb position based DPS mage, all of his abilities synergize extremely well with multiple team comps. He doesn't burst he just does work. Karthus wears the enemy down. He's of more use in arranged teams than soloque. In the realm of AP champs there are:
-Nukes
-Assassins
-Anti-Carries
-DPS Mage Karthus and Ryze are DPS mages.
@Dante: So what you're saying is "Yes Jeffy Annie and Brand are easier which makes them better."? Karthus is squishie, but he has amazing DPS. Which is why I said Annie and Brand are like 2 jons looking for a cheap hooker. They literally are there for their nuke combo. If they can't kill with their combo they didn't do their job. Which is why Karthus can be a bit better pick in a more skilled player's hands. He is a superb position based DPS mage, all of his abilities synergize extremely well with multiple team comps. He doesn't burst he just does work. Karthus wears the enemy down. He's of more use in arranged teams than soloque. In the realm of AP champs there are:
-Nukes
-Assassins
-Anti-Carries
-DPS Mage Karthus and Ryze are DPS mages.
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B-Wong is terribly wrong there. Karthus is the teamfight champ. He does amazing damage, but requires enough skill to actually deal it. He's not just about the ultimate anyone who thinks that way is playing him wrong...REALLY wrong.
Karthus' is a solid AP carry, unlike Annie or Brand who can deal super burst damage Karthus has 1 true nuke (his Ultimate) and sustainable damage skills. Defile
Karthus should outrange Annie and Brand. And with Lay Waste being smart cast you should be able to last hit on the move. If they're zoning you early you'll have to get agressive. Grab your wall at 4 or 5. It costs some mana but trust me, people are real scared of it. Lay it down in front or just behind them. If they step through it push them, if they avoid it you're fine. It lasts a little bit should at least keep them away from you or intimidate them.
yep :)
Note that you can slow them immediately by landing the wall directly on them. It's too much mana early to really use a lot, so might as well get the most out of it.
RoA is good when learning how to play him.
Archangels is the superior choice once you're comfortable being squishy, because you'll get way more AP from it, a bigger mana pool, and more mana regen.